Radically Genuine Podcast with Dr. Roger McFillin

[sean]: welcome to the radically genuine podcast i'm
dr roger mc phelan all fans out there

[sean]: take a step back at your phone
find five stars an apple and give us

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us through our website w w w rad

[sean]: gen pod dot com that's it some
interesting news recently alex berenson is back on

[sean]: twitter shan have you been following eric
alex barrinson over the yeah i'm aware of

[sean]: how he got kicked off twitter

[jim_gottstein]: to

[sean]: and the story behind it and a
lot of the things he was sharing during

[sean]: the the covid crisis and and why
he got kicked off so yeah there was

[sean]: interest there and i was recently listening
to another of my my daily podcasts and

[sean]: i heard them speaking about the situation
and what the latest is it's interesting once

[sean]: you go yeah alex berenson is somebody
that i was following on twitter for some

[sean]: information regarding the efficacy of vaccines with
covid and one of the things that was

[sean]: i think special about alex berenson was
his history as a new york times columnist

[sean]: and personally you know at that time
as many of our listeners know i was

[sean]: knee deep in a lot of the
literature on safety and efficacies of anti depressence

[sean]: because we were creating some position statements
here for our practice and once i've learned

[sean]: about how these drugs came to market
some of the fraud the problems within the

[sean]: clinical trials how they were marketed i
was obviously very skeptical about vaccines for a

[sean]: novel virus in a short amount of
time so ultimately i think that what drew

[sean]: me to alex berenson was somebody else
who was a skeptic and wanted to approach

[sean]: putting anything into our bodies with some
healthy degree of skepticism and challenging authority and

[sean]: so he recently was brought back on
to twitter he was kicked off for quote

[sean]: quote spreading misinformation about the efficacy or
the safety of ovid vaccines he has since

[sean]: been vindicated as a lot of the
data now comes in and just as sometimes

[sean]: the universe allows us to be connected
to people that our outside of our normal

[sean]: day to day it was funny that
i got an email from our our guest

[sean]: today and our guest is an attorney
and he's an advocate for people diagnosed with

[sean]: serious mental illness but jim got steen
is most famously known for sapiniapining and release

[sean]: in the ziprexa papers in late two

[jim_gottstein]: yes

[sean]: thousand and six resulting in a series
of new york times articles and an editorial

[sean]: which calling for congressional investigation into the
safety of the drug you know who wrote

[sean]: that article alex berenson alex berenson so
you know that alex barrison was somebody who

[sean]: was a skeptic because he intimate knowledge
of the pharmasutical industries practices yeah right so

[sean]: in two thousand in january two thousand
and nine elie lily who was the pharmasutical

[sean]: company that manufactured the drugs i prex
pled guilty and agreed to pay one point

[sean]: four billion in civil and criminal finds
for the activities that were revealed in the

[sean]: ziprexa papers um in twenty twenty jim
our guest published his book the siprexa papers

[sean]: giving a first hand account of what
really happened including his battles with the powerful

[sean]: legal teams that represent eli lily and
also his work on behalf of a psychiatric

[sean]: patient by the name of bill bigley
um who's really made this ordeal possible to

[sean]: capena this information and expose the sideprexa
papers i think it's safe to say it

[sean]: was a heroic act on his part
and saved tens of thousands of lives while

[sean]: placing himself at risk for criminal prosecution
he found the law project for psychiatric rights

[sean]: and we actually extremely honoured today to
to have him in radically conversation have a

[sean]: radically genuine conversation jim welcome to the
podcast

[jim_gottstein]: hank you very much i'm pleased to
be here a year very flattering i might

[jim_gottstein]: just mention that i tried to get
alex to read my book from before it

[jim_gottstein]: was published and he said he's too
busy saving the world

[sean]: yeah

[jim_gottstein]: which you know

[sean]: my

[jim_gottstein]: so anyway yeah that's an interesting convergence
there

[sean]: yeah alex is doing great work i'm
a big fan of his and i think

[sean]: it's coming from a place of just
being very conscious of the harms that can

[sean]: be created by farmasuticles and really believing
and informed consent and respecting india everyone's individual

[sean]: rights to make choices or decisions in
the best interest of their own health their

[sean]: own body and their welfare which brings
me to an opening quit and a lot

[sean]: of our listeners might not understand your
background but could you tell us really how

[jim_gottstein]: i

[sean]: you got involved in such a passionate
way in psychiatric legal advocacy

[jim_gottstein]: well

[sean]: yeah

[jim_gottstein]: in nineteen eighty two when i was
twenty nine i got into a situation where

[jim_gottstein]: i didn't get sleep um and basically
they call it icottic but i went crazy

[jim_gottstein]: and i subsequently learned anybody who doesn't
sleep for long enough well we'll basically lose

[jim_gottstein]: it and i don't have a particularly
high tolerance for lack of sleep and so

[jim_gottstein]: you know i've been pretty successful before
that and i had no idea that my

[jim_gottstein]: mind could you know become unreliable but
anyway it did um m and it was

[jim_gottstein]: in june june and anchor alaska and
i had gone to my dad's house to

[jim_gottstein]: try and get some sleep over there
and i just fallen asleep when i mean

[jim_gottstein]: i think for like a second which
is something that you know i've experienced when

[jim_gottstein]: i come out of what you know
what's called manic episodes before but anyway i

[jim_gottstein]: just fall asleep and i woke up
and i heard the devil coming down the

[jim_gottstein]: hall so

[sean]: it was

[jim_gottstein]: i was on the second floor and
i went over to the window and i

[jim_gottstein]: looked down and there was lawn down
there in the sidewalk and and i knew

[jim_gottstein]: how to do a parachute landing fall
so i i thought well if i missed

[jim_gottstein]: the sidewalk i'll be okay i was
in my underwear it was one in the

[jim_gottstein]: morning and it was light because it
was june so i jumped out i missed

[jim_gottstein]: the sidewalk i did a perfect parshoot
landing fall and i didn't hurt myself but

[jim_gottstein]: i got grabbed and hauled into the
hospital in a straight jacket um m and

[jim_gottstein]: so they shot me up with something
that ut me to sleep and so i

[jim_gottstein]: wake up and it's bad and there's
this attendant at the foot of the bed

[jim_gottstein]: with a clip board he asked me
what day is it and so i say

[jim_gottstein]: i ask him how long have i
been asleep so he writes down that i

[jim_gottstein]: don't know what day it is and

[sean]: m

[jim_gottstein]: that's kind of the way it went
and they um m people that believed that

[jim_gottstein]: i that i was a lawyer said
that i would never be able to practice

[jim_gottstein]: law again and and when i told
him i'd gone to harvard law school uh

[jim_gottstein]: that confirmed that i was delusional cause

[sean]: m

[jim_gottstein]: all that stuff is verifiable anyway i
locked it they said that i would you

[jim_gottstein]: know have to be on these drugs
for the rest of my life i was

[jim_gottstein]: put on mellarel i said i don't
want thorazine and they said oh this is

[jim_gottstein]: meller it's nothing like thorazine course it's
exactly like thorazine and but i really looked

[jim_gottstein]: into a psychiatrist who said that i
just gotten into a situation where i didn't

[jim_gottstein]: get sleep that i could learn to
deal with that and get on with my

[jim_gottstein]: life and so i feel like i
was extremely lucky to have escaped a career

[jim_gottstein]: as a mental patient for the rest
of my life and and that really changed

[jim_gottstein]: changed a lot of you know the
way i thought about the world but so

[jim_gottstein]: that's really what triggered my um psychiatric
um advocacy although i had actually was in

[jim_gottstein]: the middle of doing this law suit
against the state of alasca for stealing a

[jim_gottstein]: million acres of land it had been
granted to alaska's mental health program and trust

[jim_gottstein]: m in any event so that's what
did it and then when i read matt

[jim_gottstein]: in america by robert whittaker in two
thousand two um m to me it was

[jim_gottstein]: a litigation road map on how the
challenge forced drugging not simply based on people's

[jim_gottstein]: you know human rites and inform consent
say but that when you're being for struck

[jim_gottstein]: you don't get any you now any
consent your consent is taken away from you

[jim_gottstein]: and but based on the idea that
it was it's not in people's best interest

[jim_gottstein]: so i contacted him i got him
to send me all all the research that

[jim_gottstein]: he cited and it's on pychrites dot
or the law project for psychiatric right website

[jim_gottstein]: all of the actual studies that he
cited in mat in america and so that's

[jim_gottstein]: i had pretty much known what the
story was with the drugs before but i

[jim_gottstein]: didn't think i had had anything particular
to contribute to the effort against the four

[jim_gottstein]: struggling but with reading that in america
i felt that i did

[sean]: so you mentioned that i mean the
way that you view it is that you

[sean]: got lucky

[jim_gottstein]: m

[sean]: and

[jim_gottstein]: my

[sean]: that's sad for me to hear because
when we're talking about a health

[jim_gottstein]: hm

[sean]: care profession we shouldn't look at things
in terms of being lucky to get somebody

[sean]: he was actually ethical

[jim_gottstein]: m

[sean]: and scientific so bottom line here is
that you were sleep deprived and exhibiting symptoms

[sean]: associated with sleep

[jim_gottstein]: yeah

[sean]: deprivation you were when you were admitted
into the impatient hospital exact symptoms that you

[sean]: were presenting with were labeled as a
mental illness and and that mental less itself

[sean]: will require a certain drug for the
rest of your life and you're labeled as

[sean]: mentally ill and if you're mentally ill
well then you're disabled and you're unable then

[sean]: to produce in society or re engage
in your profession as you up to that

[sean]: point we're able to successfully do

[jim_gottstein]: right and that's what happens to the
vast majority of people that get get hauled

[jim_gottstein]: in to the system as they their
lives are ruined and in fact that's what

[jim_gottstein]: happened to bill bigley and as i
write in my book he he was two

[jim_gottstein]: months older than me and he got
hauled into a p the alaska psychiatric institute

[jim_gottstein]: two years before i was and he
was just slammed with hal do m he

[jim_gottstein]: didn't have my you know social privileges
he was a little tiny alaska native but

[jim_gottstein]: his his psychiatrist at the hospital was
the same as the one that saved my

[jim_gottstein]: life his name was robert albert and
he was really an incredible guy and the

[jim_gottstein]: discharge notes on on that first admission
was that his prognosis was guarded depending on

[jim_gottstein]: how he was helped to deal with
this divorce that he had and is now

[jim_gottstein]: losing his dog ers and being saddled
with support payments he couldn't handle which is

[jim_gottstein]: what really brought him in and of
course he wasn't given any help with that

[jim_gottstein]: he was co operative and took the
drugs m and he was discharged came back

[jim_gottstein]: i think the third time he started
refusing and so then they started forcing him

[jim_gottstein]: and by the time i met him
in you know in early december two thousand

[jim_gottstein]: six he'd been hospital it's over about
seventy times and his life had just been

[jim_gottstein]: ruined and you know i think they're
for the grace of god go frankly

[sean]: m

[jim_gottstein]: anyone really

[sean]: so jim i got a question when
you were in two thousand two when you

[sean]: had that lack of sleep what what
law were you practicing

[jim_gottstein]: night

[sean]: at the time

[jim_gottstein]: in age

[sean]: i'm sorry what law were you focused
on at that time

[jim_gottstein]: it was basically business law my

[sean]: okay

[jim_gottstein]: family business law basically

[sean]: it so

[jim_gottstein]: i had yeah

[sean]: yeah

[jim_gottstein]: and i actually was doing this middle
health trust case but i had to give

[jim_gottstein]: it up at the time

[sean]: yeah so it's interesting this profound experience
that could have went you know a different

[sean]: direction and really negatively impacted your life
actually inspires you to go down a path

[sean]: and dedicate your career to advocate for
those who are would be placed in similar

[sean]: positions now the books i press the
papers is a fascinating account of a lot

[sean]: of details around the legal system the
power of big farm and how we as

[sean]: individuals consumers our best interests are not
always taken into account united states legal and

[sean]: health care system now i really do
suggest that if you are listening to the

[sean]: podcast you get the book because you're
going to you know you're gonna get lost

[sean]: into it like i got lost into
some of the details i learned so much

[sean]: about the legal process the law i
think well was so riveting for me jim

[sean]: was your know your thought process each
step of the way and what led to

[sean]: your decision making me as a psychologist
just fascinating about some of the moral dilemmas

[sean]: that were presented but for our listeners
ould you just kind of briefly tell us

[sean]: how you received the theziprexo papers

[jim_gottstein]: you bet so it was i think
november twenty eighth two thousand six and i

[jim_gottstein]: got this call out of the blue
from this dr david eagle man who is

[jim_gottstein]: an expert witness in this massive litigation
over zyprixicausing diabetes and other metabolic problems he

[jim_gottstein]: had access to what's called discovery which
in litigation where the parties have to exchange

[jim_gottstein]: information and that that discovery was placed
under a secrecy order that provided that if

[jim_gottstein]: he was supine in from in another
case he had to give eli little notice

[jim_gottstein]: and a reasonable opportunity to object before
he complied with the sabina so he um

[jim_gottstein]: and he was already working with alex
barrenson at the new york times and so

[jim_gottstein]: and alex had found this report that
was posted on our website by dr grace

[jim_gottstein]: jackson on zyprexa that i had submitted
as in a case faith myers case which

[jim_gottstein]: is as its own interesting story but
it's called lands open which is the chemical

[jim_gottstein]: name for zyprix dubious danger drug dubious
efficacy or something like that so anyway alex

[jim_gottstein]: found it he told dr eagle man
well maybe you should call this gaston guy

[jim_gottstein]: and see if helsopinayou and so when
he finally got around and telling me that's

[jim_gottstein]: what he was about i said yeah
you know i'd be happy to do it

[jim_gottstein]: and i had my own reasons for
doing it and he had his reasons for

[jim_gottstein]: doing it and so i had to
go look for a case and that's where

[jim_gottstein]: i because you can't you can't just
a pin something you've got to have a

[jim_gottstein]: case to do it so i went
looking for bill and that's that was the

[jim_gottstein]: whole story in itself because in alaska
they really keep these m proceedings to if

[jim_gottstein]: we're going to be radically genuine

[sean]: m

[jim_gottstein]: yea i mean psychiatrically imprison people i
mean that's really what the involuntary commitment is

[jim_gottstein]: and but they keep them really secret
even though the statute says that the person

[jim_gottstein]: that the hearing show be open or
closed to the public as the respondent just

[jim_gottstein]: a person being accused of being male
shallow left but they never told the person

[jim_gottstein]: and there was never any case that
had been public before i started taking these

[jim_gottstein]: cases anyway so i found bill and
i was accused of ambulance jason that but

[jim_gottstein]: anyway so

[sean]: can i stop you there

[jim_gottstein]: so we

[sean]: so m i will stop you here
and there because there's just like interesting parts

[sean]: of the story i want to make
sure audience gets this you know at this

[sean]: time are you're you're looking for a
case in order for you to legally obtain

[sean]: the these papers and then to try
to protect the public

[jim_gottstein]: correct

[sean]: okay um for for

[jim_gottstein]: right

[sean]: our audience what is tiprexa

[jim_gottstein]: so ziprexa i mean it's marketed as
a quote a typical anticycotic but i don't

[jim_gottstein]: like to use that term i use
the term neurolyptic which was one of the

[jim_gottstein]: original terms which means seize the brand
which is what it does and basically it

[jim_gottstein]: blocked seventy to ninety per cent of
the dopamine in the front lobe and the

[jim_gottstein]: bays of ganglia and the lymbic system
and so i used to think i think

[jim_gottstein]: of them as chemical straight jackets before
i knew more about it but actually their

[jim_gottstein]: chemical lebotomies because they block the transmission
dopmene in the front of low so i

[jim_gottstein]: could go a little bit more on
what happens which but basically the response of

[jim_gottstein]: the brain to that is because the
blockage is to pump out more dopamean for

[jim_gottstein]: a few weeks and then the brain
will grow more dopamen receptors so where they've

[jim_gottstein]: never found any kind of brain abnormality
and people diagnose which getsafrenia or any other

[jim_gottstein]: you know actual you know what uh
described as a quote mental illness once these

[jim_gottstein]: drugs have been introduced then you do
see brain changes and then if someone quits

[jim_gottstein]: the drug especially abruptly you have this
flood of dope a meat causes symptoms which

[jim_gottstein]: then you know the psychiatrist says see
your mental illness is coming back when actually

[jim_gottstein]: it's the withdrawal from the drug

[sean]: okay so you know at this time
you're you're very educated already at the danger

[sean]: dangers of these drugs but in order
for you to obtain some of this information

[sean]: that's under a protective privacy order you
have to sapin these papers for a case

[sean]: that you're on which you don't have
at this point

[jim_gottstein]: right so i you know i talked
to bill and i knew that zyprexa was

[jim_gottstein]: use pretty extensively at the hospital at
that time and i asked him you know

[jim_gottstein]: you know you on you know been
given ziprexa and he never really gave me

[jim_gottstein]: a clear answer and but i was
pretty sure he had been and i mean

[jim_gottstein]: that led to problems later and so
i supped you know so yeah you have

[jim_gottstein]: to have a reason and so the
point was is that and in the mayor's

[jim_gottstein]: case which i had i mentioned before
the with the great jackson report i had

[jim_gottstein]: one this alaska supreme court decision that
said um m the statute says that if

[jim_gottstein]: the person is incompetent to decline the
medication and the hospital gets to do whatever

[jim_gottstein]: they want i went and i said
no they can't do that they've got to

[jim_gottstein]: at least prove it's in the person's
best interest and there's no less intrusive alternative

[jim_gottstein]: and so and they agreed with me
on that and so so then the legal

[jim_gottstein]: basis was as well you shouldn't be
allowed to drug bill with with these drugs

[jim_gottstein]: because it's not in the is best
interest and here are these secret documents that

[jim_gottstein]: will show that and so i'm entitled
to these docet and to help prove my

[jim_gottstein]: case that bill should not be drugged
against as well

[sean]: okay what what is the secret information
that in this document that can serve the

[sean]: public

[jim_gottstein]: well first of all i'm under an
injunction not to further disseminate the ziprex paper

[jim_gottstein]: so i can't really say but but
there you know numerous newspaper reports but i

[jim_gottstein]: can't say that i can really answer
your question i mean they caused diabetes and

[jim_gottstein]: they hid that from the doctors they
cause diabetes and they cause other metogolic problems

[jim_gottstein]: and a pretty high percentage of people
do uh significant weight gain and many people

[jim_gottstein]: would gain a hundred pounds in a
year and people that got diabetes got diabetes

[jim_gottstein]: even if they didn't gain weight and
so that's you know that's a deadly thing

[jim_gottstein]: i mean i tend to say that
now tens of thousands of people have been

[jim_gottstein]: killed by ziprexa but i don't don't
know if you know d peter girsha who's

[jim_gottstein]: one of the now most may be
published medical researchers in the world and he

[jim_gottstein]: calculates that by that time our hundred
thousand people have been killed by zitrexa so

[sean]: wow

[jim_gottstein]: you know and the fat you know
so yeah these are just this is just

[jim_gottstein]: staggering harm and this was being hidden
from the doctors and and so you know

[jim_gottstein]: i thought maybe the public should be
informed of this

[sean]: absolutely so you're kind of faced with
this i'm going to describe it as a

[sean]: moral dilemma because you have to determine
you have to have to protect yourself legally

[sean]: because any way you distribute this information
you potentially could be violating the law and

[sean]: putting yourself at risk while at the
same time you're you have this information that

[sean]: you know is harmful to hundreds and
thousands of people i think at the time

[sean]: ziprexa was there one of their top
selling drugs i think it was like grossing

[sean]: a billion

[jim_gottstein]: number one

[sean]: it was number

[jim_gottstein]: five

[sean]: one

[jim_gottstein]: billion a year

[sean]: five billion yeahgrossing five billion a year
and you have the privilege of having having

[sean]: this information that demonstrates that people could
develop metabolic indra diabetes cardiovascular problem significant waking

[sean]: people will die from taking this drug
so i'm just really interested in kind of

[sean]: maybe understanding you know what you are
going through emotionally at that time how you

[sean]: came about making the decisions that you
did

[jim_gottstein]: well first off i was determined to
do things legally and so my life my

[jim_gottstein]: position was is that dr eagle man
was the one who signed you know on

[jim_gottstein]: to that secrecy order and he had
to follow it and so when i had

[jim_gottstein]: supped en him he had to give
eli lily a reasonable opportunity to object before

[jim_gottstein]: he gave them to me and i
expected that they would object and that i

[jim_gottstein]: would be in court arguing to the
judge in alaska why you know bill bigley

[jim_gottstein]: was entitled to these documents to defend
against being drugged against as well because it

[jim_gottstein]: showed that it wasn't in his best
interest but i there were some you know

[jim_gottstein]: games played so for example eagle man
sent notice to the general council of eli

[jim_gottstein]: lily figuring it would take a little
while to get to the lawyers handling the

[jim_gottstein]: case and and then there was i
maybe get into that later but but when

[jim_gottstein]: i but once i have the documents
as far as i was concerned i was

[jim_gottstein]: free to distribute them but

[sean]: because

[jim_gottstein]: i

[sean]: you

[jim_gottstein]: also

[sean]: hadn't

[jim_gottstein]: know

[sean]: signed

[jim_gottstein]: lily

[sean]: any

[jim_gottstein]: you know

[sean]: document is it because you hadn't signed

[jim_gottstein]: yeah

[sean]: any agreement

[jim_gottstein]: and and they had been and they'd
come out from under the secrecy order and

[sean]: hm

[jim_gottstein]: so um but i even though lily
had been slow i knew that once they

[jim_gottstein]: got going they would be big and
fast so once i found that i had

[jim_gottstein]: him i got them out fast and
i and i got them out i tried

[jim_gottstein]: to get him out in a way
that could not be gotten back and so

[jim_gottstein]: they ended up and i and i
in the book i you know disclose who

[jim_gottstein]: the people were that got them out
on the internet is i think it's called

[jim_gottstein]: bit torn or tour and it was
kind of a precursor to wick leagues

[sean]: hm

[jim_gottstein]: um m and so i got him
out to them most and i was i

[jim_gottstein]: would as i was making dvds of
these and it was right there you know

[jim_gottstein]: it's kind of during the christmas rush
and anyway i had my i had my

[jim_gottstein]: music you know rock music going in
the background and i had three computers making

[jim_gottstein]: d v ds um you know addressing
envelopes and going out to to the post

[jim_gottstein]: office putting them in in the mail
and and i

[jim_gottstein]: one of my thoughts was it was
kind of amusing i knew it was right

[jim_gottstein]: in the christmas rush and so it
might take weeks for some of these to

[jim_gottstein]: get somewhere and it did but this
was i think on december twelfth two thousand

[jim_gottstein]: six and the new york times the
first article came out on december seventeenth so

[jim_gottstein]: um in addition to the dvds i
had set up what's call and f t

[jim_gottstein]: p file transfer protocol which is designed
to send a lot of files and big

[jim_gottstein]: files over the internet and that's how
will hall who put him out on the

[jim_gottstein]: internet got him and that's how alex
berenson got them as well so

[jim_gottstein]: anyway that and then that's what happened
then course eli lily did get big and

[jim_gottstein]: fast some it is kind of amazing
how they could whistle of federal judges to

[jim_gottstein]: issue orders against me

[sean]: yeah i mean this book plays out
like a movie so i almost like saw

[sean]: it in my mind like there's a
movie and i think this would be a

[sean]: great movie do hope somebody

[jim_gottstein]: i

[sean]: out there turns this book a movie
and one of the things that really stand

[sean]: stands out is that you know you're
i'm thinking about this like the stress that

[sean]: you're under i already know because you
wrote about it that when you're when you

[sean]: struggle with sleep and can become a
problem you really struggle with your your own

[sean]: mental health and these these eli lilly
attorneys are like pit bulls and they don't

[sean]: sleep like they don't ever sleep because
they're they're

[jim_gottstein]: i

[sean]: they're emailing you at like three in
the morning and two in the morning with

[sean]: questions but back to the moral dilemma
you were facing you had to determine what

[sean]: is a reasonable amount of time for
them to object now that

[jim_gottstein]: a

[sean]: seems very arbitrary

[jim_gottstein]: no that was dr eagle man's call

[sean]: okay

[jim_gottstein]: i supine him

[sean]: right

[jim_gottstein]: it was his obligato and lily screwed
up i mean in all kinds of ways

[jim_gottstein]: okay

[jim_gottstein]: so for example the he's supine and
someone who supine has a right to object

[jim_gottstein]: to a spina and then when they
object to the spina everything stops so and

[jim_gottstein]: under this agreement that he signed you
know he has to notify lily and then

[jim_gottstein]: he has to do what lily says
so lily should have just directed him to

[jim_gottstein]: object but they didn't and said i
get this call um m i forget when

[jim_gottstein]: it was it was a couple days
after they got out from eielilily got a

[jim_gottstein]: lawyer in alaska and he called and
left it was hanka so i'd gone home

[jim_gottstein]: a little bit early and so it
was late afternoon and he left a voice

[jim_gottstein]: mail on my my voice mail which
i picked up later that night in and

[jim_gottstein]: so i thought i don't want to
seem like and then i immediately tell eagle

[jim_gottstein]: man dr eagle man they're on to
us and so and he decides that they've

[jim_gottstein]: had a reasonable opportunity to object and
so i decide i think i don't want

[jim_gottstein]: him to think that i'm avoiding him
but i don't really want to talk to

[jim_gottstein]: him right now and so so i
call him first thing in the morning at

[jim_gottstein]: eight in the morning figuring he's not
going to be there and that's and i

[jim_gottstein]: left a message for him and i
didn't hear back from him until a couple

[jim_gottstein]: of days later that friday then i
got all these threatening letters from eli lily

[jim_gottstein]: and then the special discovery master calls
and leaves a message to call them over

[jim_gottstein]: the weekend and then a few hours
later you know issues this

[sean]: oh

[jim_gottstein]: order saying to return them and not
to further disseminate them and i say how

[jim_gottstein]: do you get to order me about
so we're off to the races at that

[jim_gottstein]: point

[sean]: yeah and that's for

[jim_gottstein]: and then

[sean]: the go ahead

[jim_gottstein]: and then and the new york times
article breaks that i think it was a

[jim_gottstein]: sunday

[sean]: and that's where the book really picks
off and where the movie will pick off

[sean]: to i would really love to see
the movie because i'm imagining it's the home

[sean]: alone scene you got your christmas music
playing in the background rocket the christmas tree

[sean]: and you're just burned in d v
des and mailing them out right before the

[sean]: holidays that would be fascinating to see

[jim_gottstein]: i'm sure it's not really christmas tree
but that's the idea

[sean]: um i do have to i worked
in the business field and i worked in

[sean]: advertising and often we would rely upon
a a text study that would provide us

[sean]: information that would guide us in terms
of how we were going to market a

[sean]: product features benefits and then ultimately what
would set our product apart from any other

[sean]: so in these papers that you identified
was there anything that jumped out to you

[sean]: that ultimately led to this the settlement
of the one

[jim_gottstein]: so

[sean]: point four million dollars

[jim_gottstein]: a well i mean there were two
parts to it well

[sean]: yeah

[jim_gottstein]: the settlement was not well there were
two there was a settlement and all of

[jim_gottstein]: the damage people that sued m and
so that was over the damage but then

[jim_gottstein]: the one that you mentioned the one
point four billion with the government that was

[jim_gottstein]: over basically illegal promotion

[sean]: hm

[jim_gottstein]: so m doctors can prescribe any drug
that's improved for any use doctors can prescribe

[jim_gottstein]: for drugs are a proof for specific
uses m but doctors can prescribe for any

[jim_gottstein]: use the drug companies can only promote
approved uses and so at that point zyprexa

[jim_gottstein]: had only been improved for um ople
diagnosed with skitzofrenia and maybe by polar disorder

[jim_gottstein]: by that time and so but they
were marketing it to children and they were

[jim_gottstein]: marketing and this is you know really
damaging drug and they were marketing it to

[jim_gottstein]: the elderly basically in nursing homes i
mean what happens is you know people don't

[jim_gottstein]: like being in those plexcisalot were they
complain and you give them ziprexa and they're

[jim_gottstein]: not able to complain any more they
hardly can't even get out of bed and

[jim_gottstein]: then they die and the you know
people say oh well you're your mother was

[jim_gottstein]: old

[sean]: so i got a question we

[jim_gottstein]: and i

[sean]: we had recently had the discussion with
with patrick on on obedience pills about a

[sean]: d h d medication the medication of
children which we all agree you shouldn't really

[sean]: be happening during this per of time
when this market was marketed to children i

[sean]: listened to another speech of yours i
think you were giving a lecture and you

[sean]: you said at one time uh children
would be put into a category and we

[sean]: would never drug them but between like
nineteen ninety five and two thousand five there

[sean]: was this dramatic change in the approach
what was happening during that time

[jim_gottstein]: well johnson and johnson i mean there
was always a d h d and the

[jim_gottstein]: stimulants that as a pretty significant number
of children given the stimulants like riddling or

[jim_gottstein]: through terror or whatever at or all
it causes them to become manic so then

[jim_gottstein]: they get diagnosed with by polar disorder
but there is a psychiatrist at harvard medical

[jim_gottstein]: school that johnson and johnson he o
do a study that said risperdall was safe

[jim_gottstein]: and effective for the use in children
and so he's been attributed to

[sean]: yeah oh

[jim_gottstein]: the four forty times increase in the
diagnosis of by polar disorder in children in

[jim_gottstein]: ten years so and there's i mean
that was in a different case that where

[jim_gottstein]: some secret documents got out and there
was an email there's all these email exchanges

[jim_gottstein]: between beaterman and johnson and johnson basically
where he says i'm going to do this

[jim_gottstein]: study and the result is going to
be that rispertall should be used in children

[sean]: but it's interesting at that time so
around when you were going through this

[jim_gottstein]: yeah

[sean]: and the ziprexa papers were released the
new york times article and so forth at

[sean]: that time i was in the middle

[jim_gottstein]: oh

[sean]: of my doctoral program and i was
at a placement in community mental health center

[sean]: and i remember this sichiatrist telling me
that if any of my clients who are

[sean]: prescribed in s s r i exhibit
any mania or manic symptoms that would mean

[sean]: that they are by polar and then
the next drug that should be placed to

[sean]: some neuroleptic

[jim_gottstein]: to

[sean]: some form of quote quote mood stabilizer
which at the time was ziprecice you know

[sean]: a lot and i was almost fell
off my chair reading your

[jim_gottstein]: thank

[sean]: book where this was deliberate on part
of the marketing teams two push that information

[sean]: without any scientific basis knowing that a
side effect of s s r s in

[sean]: a percentage of the population is going
to be mania be able to increase the

[sean]: sale of zy prex

[jim_gottstein]: i

[sean]: they hold the physicians many of them
primary care physicians who just don't have the

[sean]: background knowledge or time for full examinations
they just inform them that this just means

[sean]: their bible or you have to add
ziprexa

[jim_gottstein]: yeah and they you know they say
oh the and i depressed so called and

[jim_gottstein]: the present unmasked your diet you know
by polar disorder and what's i can't think

[jim_gottstein]: of his name there is a psychiatrist
in also at harvard you know the anti

[jim_gottstein]: depression is also caused suicideality and you
know violence and m and so he did

[jim_gottstein]: this study where you know well he
noticed some patients that they became you know

[jim_gottstein]: agitated and violent and so he said
lynch stopped the drug and then stopped the

[jim_gottstein]: drug and that that reaction ceased and
they said well let's see what happens when

[jim_gottstein]: we started again and they they started
the drug again and that you know symptom

[jim_gottstein]: re occur and they stopped it and
stopped and so you know there's a side

[jim_gottstein]: that these random is controlled studies are
the gold standard but this is called a

[jim_gottstein]: challenge d challenge re challenge and that's
really good evidence and as i

[sean]: m

[jim_gottstein]: write in my book they really cook
the books on these random ized control trials

[jim_gottstein]: in order to make their drugs look
good

[sean]: yeah so the question i have right
now is after this settlement happened in was

[sean]: it january of two thousand nine so
problem

[jim_gottstein]: think

[sean]: has been solved right

[jim_gottstein]: we uh you know a bunch of
states sued lily over the cost of treating

[jim_gottstein]: diabetes and other metabolic problems they had
to pay through their medicate programs in alaska

[jim_gottstein]: was one of them and it was
the first as to go to trial and

[jim_gottstein]: at that point i thought oolishly that
lily was negotiating some kind of settlement with

[jim_gottstein]: me and i and i mentioned to
them you know there's still forcing prex on

[jim_gottstein]: people

[sean]: mhm

[jim_gottstein]: and so then they brought it up
in a trial so i was kind of

[jim_gottstein]: upset with myself on that but um
m you know ziprexa is off patent now

[jim_gottstein]: so lily doesn't really care that much
i mean they still saw a lot of

[jim_gottstein]: it um but it's kind of amazing
how they come out with his new drug

[jim_gottstein]: that's not really any different or any
better and probably not as good if they're

[jim_gottstein]: good at all um and more harmful
and they get they get the doctors psychotrists

[jim_gottstein]: and other prebscribers prescribe the latest drugs
that haven't really you know nobody has any

[jim_gottstein]: really experience and they cost you know
a ton of money much more than the

[jim_gottstein]: older ones they get the doctors to
prescribe this stuff

[sean]: jim i got a i got a
question and maybe you can answer it for

[sean]: me because sometimes i feel like i
live on another planet um you know we

[sean]: have all this information you know i've
been seeing a decade like how how the

[sean]: health of clients who who were diagnosed
with serious mental health conditions such as by

[sean]: polar or skits of frina how you
know just declined dramatically and there they're functioning

[sean]: as really decreased so it's not like
we have all this empirical data from strong

[sean]: clinical trials and we certainly don't have
the anecdotal evidence or the observational evidence that

[sean]: these drugs are highly effective an don't
care what the drug is help me get

[sean]: into the minds of these doctors who
keep repeating the same things over and over

[sean]: again and are able to take this
information that from farmasutical sales people and then

[sean]: continue to make the same mistake the
next drug the next drug what is going

[sean]: on there what's the other side of
this

[jim_gottstein]: so you know i showed this to
you i mean i don't know if you

[jim_gottstein]: can hear it

[sean]: we can hear

[jim_gottstein]: he is

[sean]: oh

[jim_gottstein]: can you see that is that backwards

[sean]: no we can

[jim_gottstein]: anyway

[sean]: see it it's it's lucy you're holding
up a shirt of lucy from the peanuts

[sean]: psychiatric help the doctor was

[jim_gottstein]: fold are complacent

[sean]: fooled or complacent

[jim_gottstein]: oh

[sean]: for our listeners that can't

[jim_gottstein]: and

[sean]: speak

[jim_gottstein]: and and i haven't you know i
try not to attribute bad motives to people

[jim_gottstein]: and you know it seems like these
people want to help so you know maybe

[jim_gottstein]: they're full but at this point the
evidence is just overwhelming about how harmful these

[jim_gottstein]: drugs are how counter productive they are
i mean there's m it's pretty clear that

[jim_gottstein]: people that present with a first time
psychosis if you take the different approach like

[jim_gottstein]: the soteria approach or open dialogue approach
that you can get and really avoid the

[jim_gottstein]: use of neuroleptics if at all possible
you can get an eighty per cent recovery

[jim_gottstein]: rate okay we have a five percent
recovery rate and and i rely heavily on

[jim_gottstein]: robert whittaker's work and he m and
one of one of the grass he has

[jim_gottstein]: is at the rate of disability on
a per capita basis because of mental illness

[jim_gottstein]: where mental illness is you know attributed
as the cause of disability has gone up

[jim_gottstein]: eight times since the introduction of the
so called miracle drug thorizine in the midnighteen

[jim_gottstein]: fifties

[sean]: ah

[jim_gottstein]: and so we have this evidence and
then there's it's there's this studied by harold

[jim_gottstein]: and job that that shows that people
who have been on the neuralyptics for a

[jim_gottstein]: while and then get off of them
have a forty percent chance of recovering so

[jim_gottstein]: that's eight times better than the five
per cent it's half of what what it

[jim_gottstein]: would be if we avoided him in
the first place and m know so why

[jim_gottstein]: is this allowed to happen i mean
i think you know you just have to

[jim_gottstein]: say it's the money um you know
there's just so much money and but why

[jim_gottstein]: the doctors go along with it

[jim_gottstein]: you know i don't know i mean
it's you could say it's kind of a

[jim_gottstein]: massed illusion i mean like you know
i mentioned dr grace jackson and she was

[jim_gottstein]: a navy sychactrist paths and she'd been
trained the way they all have m and

[jim_gottstein]: she was treating patients and she saw
that they weren't wasn't helping you so then

[jim_gottstein]: she looked into it and you know
and discovered the truth about it and so

[jim_gottstein]: she she refused to do it what
she got drummed out of the navy almost

[jim_gottstein]: lost her license to practice law and
i think she had defiled bankruptcy at one

[jim_gottstein]: point and so one other little anecdote
so after i read matt in american two

[jim_gottstein]: thousand two i brought i actually brought
bob whittaker robert whitaker up to alaska and

[jim_gottstein]: one of these things i got him
to do go have a talk at the

[jim_gottstein]: alaska psychiatric institute you know they had
psychiatrists and other staff members an even psychitist

[jim_gottstein]: from the community come in and he
gave his talk and i would say the

[jim_gottstein]: kind of feeling in the room was
well even if we agree with what you

[jim_gottstein]: say and we kind of do we
wouldn't be allowed to do what you suggest

[sean]: oh

[jim_gottstein]: and so it's not the way doctors
are supposed to be but that's the way

[jim_gottstein]: they are i mean society has this
idea you know that they need to drug

[jim_gottstein]: these people to keep them from getting
killed in there you know when they're sleep

[jim_gottstein]: when the truth is when you look
at all these mass shootings i mean everybody

[jim_gottstein]: wants to blame mental is we need
to do more mental health treatment at virtually

[jim_gottstein]: all of them we're on psyche drugs
and often the anidepressens you know it's not

[jim_gottstein]: a large number of people that are
that become violent um m when you have

[jim_gottstein]: tens of millions of people on them
a small a small number who you know

[jim_gottstein]: become homicidal results in what we're seeing

[sean]: yeah jim i think this podcast episode
is so important because history matters and so

[sean]: we're sitting here nd we're in twenty
twenty two all this happened you know around

[sean]: two thousand six two thousand seven you
know was in the the national media it

[sean]: was something that was certainly part of
our discourse but here we are

[jim_gottstein]: i

[sean]: in twenty twenty two and there's still
people being prescribed ziprexaand patients and families they

[sean]: do not receive informed consent i'm just
goin t give you a quick

[jim_gottstein]: oh

[sean]: story because i got permission from a
client who i just previously conducted in evaluation

[sean]: on and these type of situations are
all too familiar started episode started with having

[sean]: covid post covid had about thirteen days
straight of a horrible migraine and this particular

[sean]: person was placed on daily steroids i
v steroids with a side effect

[jim_gottstein]: yeah

[sean]: of that being mania so she was
getting ivystheroids going in to hospitals days after

[sean]: days also taking some oral steroids and
additionally was smoking marawana throughout today to try

[sean]: to alleviate the pain and then she
went into a manic episode and the manic

[sean]: episode was severe and it required it
required hospitalization and she was told she has

[sean]: by pole or one disorder it's in
a manic episode and was prescribed iprexo amongst

[sean]: other drugs so it's usually not just
one drug someone's prescribed it's multiple and it's

[sean]: the interaction between the drugs it's providing
a la able without addressing the

[jim_gottstein]: a

[sean]: cause so it's very clear that there's
a high percentage of people that are prone

[sean]: to going into manic episodes from being
that steroid but yet she's now labelled with

[sean]: by polar one disorder and it's an
illness that she has to manage for the

[sean]: rest of

[jim_gottstein]: yeah

[sean]: her life and she's going to be
placed on a drug a drug that creates

[sean]: metabolic cyndrum a significant side effects and
then you're interacting it with other drugs that

[sean]: haven't been adequately studied she's labelled with
a with a psychiatric diagnosis you can't test

[sean]: for it's really the opinion of a
psychiatrist which was a sidin't at the time

[sean]: and she just feels absolutely horrible and
people don't have this information they assume these

[sean]: psychiatric diagnosis are valid they're reliable in
what we have we have safe and effective

[sean]: drugs to treat them and that's how

[jim_gottstein]: i

[sean]: the doctors communicate

[jim_gottstein]: they don't they don't tell i mean
each drug comes with what's called a label

[jim_gottstein]: which has now all these information on
the drugs and for example ziprexyouknow we'll say

[jim_gottstein]: you know we'll have that on there
and i one and the drug companies really

[jim_gottstein]: negotiate with the f d a to
try and minimize you know the negative aspects

[jim_gottstein]: of that in one of my cross
examinations of doctrine a bill bigger cases i

[jim_gottstein]: asked him about well doesn't it say
here that direct it causes or whatever drug

[jim_gottstein]: it was is probably rispidoff causes psychosis
it says that right on the label that

[jim_gottstein]: respertall causes psychosis it's supposed to be
the treatment for psychosis but it causes it

[jim_gottstein]: and so he says oh you know
that's the lawyers just made them do that

[jim_gottstein]: you know i don't

[sean]: m

[jim_gottstein]: pay any attention to that

[sean]: yeah

[jim_gottstein]: and now and it's like dr joanna
montre just came out with us study that

[jim_gottstein]: the andssriande presence that there's well that
there's no evidence that the pressure is caused

[jim_gottstein]: by chemical unbalance and the thing about
that you know it got a lot of

[jim_gottstein]: play i mean national media and so
it's like oh now this is out there

[jim_gottstein]: and but we've known about that for
twenty years the m and d ronald pies

[jim_gottstein]: who was the head of the american
psychiatric association as we never told people there

[jim_gottstein]: was a chemical in balance well i
heard someone last week who was told that

[jim_gottstein]: they had a chemical in balance so
m yeh i mean it's so important for

[jim_gottstein]: the public to know this stuff and
it's so hard to get them to know

[jim_gottstein]: it and that's you know why i
wrote you know the book is you know

[jim_gottstein]: i i think it could be impactful
if i if it got enough m you

[jim_gottstein]: play in the in the general public
which it hasn't really

[sean]: so jim when it comes to protecting
the public since you brought up the f

[sean]: d a isn't the f d a
there to protect the safety and welfare of

[sean]: the public

[jim_gottstein]: i think it's fair to say that
the f d is captured by the industry

[jim_gottstein]: i mean there's this revolving door between
the f d a and farmer cuitical companies

[jim_gottstein]: um m i think it was in
nineteen ninety two sometimes in the nineteen nineties

[jim_gottstein]: congress changed the way the f d
a was financed so basically the f d

[jim_gottstein]: is financed by the drug companies

[sean]: ah

[jim_gottstein]: so the fat charges drug companies you
know for the approval of their drugs so

[jim_gottstein]: the drug company s paid for the
approval of of their drugs and they get

[jim_gottstein]: the approval of their drugs i mean
um m

[sean]: so jim

[jim_gottstein]: that is not rely

[sean]: i've got a

[jim_gottstein]: on

[sean]: question

[jim_gottstein]: the f d a

[sean]: jim do you recall what happened the
very same day that the one point four

[sean]: billion dollar fetal federal settlement regarding zaprexo
was announced with the f d a d

[sean]: you remember what happened that same day

[jim_gottstein]: tell

[sean]: i'll

[jim_gottstein]: me

[sean]: read it to you because i found
this most interesting is on that very same

[sean]: day the f d a issued guidance
permitting farmersutical companies to buy past the prohibition

[sean]: of marketing off lay uses of drugs
allowing them to pass out medical journal articles

[sean]: that discussed these non approved uses so
that was their way around marketing it was

[sean]: to have medical journals do the work
for them and have it distributed to

[jim_gottstein]: that

[sean]: the doctors

[jim_gottstein]: and that's another scandal is the whole
medical research literature a very large percentage oh

[jim_gottstein]: medical journal articles are ghost written by
the drug companies and course the trials are

[jim_gottstein]: all paid by the drug companies

[sean]: yeah

[jim_gottstein]: used to be universities would conduct you
know these drug tries not any more they

[jim_gottstein]: have what they call contract research organizations
do these studies and you know if you

[jim_gottstein]: want to get the next contract you
know this contract better come out with the

[jim_gottstein]: result that the drug company wants and
m and then they pay these key opinion

[jim_gottstein]: leaders put their name on the articles
and they don't even allow these so called

[jim_gottstein]: authors access to the data

[sean]: hm

[jim_gottstein]: i mean fundamentally i don't think health
care should be a profit driven enterprise because

[jim_gottstein]: it brings in all this stuff its
corruption

[sean]: yeah so unfortunate the way that i
started to think about things as we have

[sean]: to educate the next generation and for
us here out of practice we develop some

[sean]: guidelines around the actual safety and efficacy
of antidepressence because they're just astronomical the rise

[sean]: and anti depressing that are just being
handed out to developing teen agers and young

[sean]: people despite all the risks it's almost
like as as if it's candy you know

[sean]: it as it has no risks and
these parents are actually you know scared to

[sean]: not except the medical recommendations or the
medical advice of their practitioners so we have

[sean]: this we have this system of an
expert culture here in the united states where

[sean]: we rely so much on on doctors
opinions the doctors have become nothing more than

[sean]: legalized drug dealers in our in our
health care systems and this has to be

[sean]: a grass roots effort where we can
just be able to openly discuss scientific findings

[sean]: and risks and benefits and that's what
is most concerning about where we are in

[sean]: the united states culture

[jim_gottstein]: that

[sean]: is there's a there's a limitation that's
really placed on our ability to freely have

[sean]: these conversations and there's where its like
misinformation being thrown out or conspiracy theory this

[sean]: feels like a reasonable

[jim_gottstein]: yeah

[sean]: conversation based on actual evidence but if
you engage in with the greater public through

[sean]: social media or you talk to just
people and your your friend group or you

[sean]: know that you saw alive with they
kind of look at you like you're like

[sean]: you're crazy by talking about this my
brother is right here we've had so many

[sean]: early podcasts he thought a lot of
the things that i was talking about regarding

[sean]: the impact of the farmsutical industry and
how we think of what is

[jim_gottstein]: do

[sean]: safe and what is healthy you thought
i was crazy i was making most of

[sean]: it up i mean i still tink
you're crazy about a lot of things but

[sean]: i believe these to be accurate nowyeahand
so the question is dedicated your our adult

[sean]: life to this gym you know through
your our advocacy through the law project for

[sean]: psychiatric rights how do we begin to
make changes obviously needs to be a grass

[sean]: roots effort that requires you know so
many stay holders to be able to have

[sean]: open dialogue and conversations but parmasutical industry
is powerful so powerful how do we even

[sean]: begin to make changes and get this
information out

[jim_gottstein]: so no i mean that's something that
i've tried to work out for twenty years

[jim_gottstein]: and i you know i don't know
if you watch the video there's a video

[jim_gottstein]: where i talk about um m now
how i see changing the system the mental

[jim_gottstein]: health system or i call the illness
system and of course the most important thing

[jim_gottstein]: is changing public attitudes and how do
you break through i mean i remember when

[jim_gottstein]: they first said we got it we
got to stop trump on twitter and as

[jim_gottstein]: much as you know you know trump
is you know so totally bad news to

[jim_gottstein]: me it was like you know this
is a slippery slope and i'm not a

[jim_gottstein]: slippery slope kind of guy i mean
normally when people make that argument yeah but

[jim_gottstein]: this one has proven to be true
and there's so much censorship going on now

[jim_gottstein]: i mean i've got these videos on
you tube and i started to get concerned

[jim_gottstein]: that they'll be taken down at some
point i mean alex berenson is a perfect

[jim_gottstein]: example um and there are all these
other people if you don't these days if

[jim_gottstein]: you don't go along with you know
the authorities and you know then you're doing

[jim_gottstein]: miss information and you should be stopped
rum discussion it's like now you know nobody

[jim_gottstein]: believes in the first amendment anymore and
that's not the way you know to deal

[jim_gottstein]: with this stuff and i wish i
had an answer now i have a policy

[jim_gottstein]: and i for twenty years of accepting
every speaking invitation that i can you know

[jim_gottstein]: i'm pretty open about my stuff and
i write stuff and you know in a

[jim_gottstein]: lot of ways the internet you know
is kind of an equalizer i mean i

[jim_gottstein]: put stuff out and people find it
but not enough people i can't say anything

[jim_gottstein]: i've done is gone quote viral and
i i i don't have a good answer

[jim_gottstein]: for that other than i don't really
i mean i do what i can and

[jim_gottstein]: but i wouldn't say it's been successful
and in a lot of ways i think

[jim_gottstein]: things are getting worse

[sean]: jim and we'll do what we can
to in terms of sharing links to purchase

[sean]: your book through amazon and also directing
our listeners to go to your website your

[sean]: law project for psychiatric rights a a
psyche writes um uh is it psycerites dot

[sean]: com

[jim_gottstein]: pyrites dot org

[sean]: dot or okay thank you for correcting
me pycherites dot or anybody listening go down

[sean]: to the show summary there's direct links
there i did go to that destination i

[sean]: found a lot of your lectures and
your your interviews there's a lot of of

[sean]: content there for anybody who wants to
to hear some of your speaking engagements and

[sean]: a bunch of other people as well
so it's it's right for information one of

[sean]: the things that i want add i
mean there's been a new law that was

[sean]: passed in i think it was california
as it passed already think it's i think

[sean]: it's a proposal a proposal because i've
seen some push back from doctors good and

[sean]: and the specifics around that were you
know it gives the state of california authority

[sean]: to remove the license of a medical
professional if they believe there spreading misinformation and

[sean]: that's obviously extremely extremely concerning because one
of the things that we know is what

[sean]: is believed to be established scientific fact
at any given tie i'm certainly could be

[sean]: nothing more

[jim_gottstein]: yeah

[sean]: than just propaganda and i think when
where i look at it is like right

[sean]: now people still accept the efficacy of
the chemical balance theory and that the anti

[sean]: depressence work and they work by correcting
and underlying chemical and balance and so that

[sean]: people believe that's established science ten you
could lose your license for having conversations just

[sean]: like this and science is a process
it's an open process that includes free speech

[sean]: and the ability to examine data makes
sense of it create new studies it's constantly

[sean]: evolving and that's what i think makes
a free society is your ability to be

[sean]: able to continue to test evelop hypothesis
gather information and really respect everyone's individual rights

[sean]: so for our listeners in california that
is a b two zero nine eight and

[sean]: i believe gavin newsom has three weeks
to sign the bill but he has yet

[sean]: to take a public position on it
and i think that was as of yesterday

[sean]: which would be august dangerous first

[jim_gottstein]: really dangerous

[sean]: all right so we really took a
lot of your time jim before we conclude

[sean]: right now are you hanging out there
on the island of maui you partially retired

[sean]: at this this stage in the game

[jim_gottstein]: so pretty much i think i did
my last litigation h a week or so

[jim_gottstein]: ago but i'm although there's one type
of case that i would come out of

[jim_gottstein]: retirement to do which is a medicated
fraud case against the psychiatric drugging of children

[jim_gottstein]: in youth and there's information about that
on pychridestrata we could talk about it um

[jim_gottstein]: m but i think that's potentially he
most effective way to stop the drugging of

[jim_gottstein]: children but other than that i think
i'm done with litigation but i'm really involved

[jim_gottstein]: in trying to m bring about alternatives
to the current paradime and so there was

[jim_gottstein]: this last october the five october last
last year it was this international pure respite

[jim_gottstein]: and soteria summit where seven hundred and
fifty people from forty countries came together over

[jim_gottstein]: you know zoomicors and had really great
presentations and discussion about these alternative you know

[jim_gottstein]: the ones why i'm talking about that
get eighty per cent recovery rates things like

[jim_gottstein]: that and and i've gotten really involved
on kind of the you know trying to

[jim_gottstein]: designated the person to try and do
it to create more of these pure respites

[jim_gottstein]: and soteriahouses around the world to get
people people have those choices and as a

[jim_gottstein]: legal matter people have the right to
the least restrictive in terms of psychiatric imprisonment

[jim_gottstein]: and the least intrusive alternative with respect
for drugging m so it's really important to

[jim_gottstein]: have these alternatives available so i'm i'm
working really hard on that and i'm on

[jim_gottstein]: the board of for about a year
and a little over mind freedom international and

[jim_gottstein]: there actually heading this summit thing but
they also have this program called the mind

[jim_gottstein]: freedom shield when people are being faced
or threatened with psychiatric imprisonment or for drugging

[jim_gottstein]: they can ask for this alert to
go out and have people really come together

[jim_gottstein]: and put pressure to try and get
that stopped and it's hard now some success

[jim_gottstein]: is not always successful but i really
support that effort and so i am on

[jim_gottstein]: may i'm not on vacation

[sean]: this is a human rights issue so
for all listeners out there jim got stein

[sean]: has been a powerful force in being
able to protect the rights of those who

[sean]: have been identified as psycheatrically or medically
ill but more and more importantly he's taken

[sean]: his own personal risks to be able
to share information to be able to protect

[sean]: the public and i think that's where
we're at as a radically genuine podcast and

[sean]: trying to support a movement where there
is open dialogue and there's discussion where people

[sean]: can make the best informed decisions for
their own health regardless of whether it's psychiatric

[sean]: drugs i mean we've talked about this
shown with with the covid response and mandation

[sean]: of vaccines and so forth it really
is a human rights issue so on a

[sean]: podcast that wants to have these radically
genuine conversations you know were deeply appreciative for

[sean]: having god stein as a guest jim
thank you so much for joining the radically

[sean]: genuine podcast