Radically Genuine Podcast

[kel]: welcome to the radically genuine podcast dr
roger mcfillin for our fans out there

[kel]: how about you take one second pause
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[beverley_thomson]: yes

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r website rad rad gen dot com agen

[kel]: pod e's always got the radgenpod

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: dot com and you can contact us
there we've been

[beverley_thomson]: m

[kel]: getting son email s from guests with
interesting thoughts on future topics and we really

[kel]: do appreciate that and it's really assisted
me getting out to talking to some other

[kel]: people out there who are experts outside
of areas that i have studied and that's

[kel]: important for us to bring on guests
who have experts in specific areas definitely us

[kel]: welcome back kelly we missed you last
week i had to go on vacation

[beverley_thomson]: oh

[kel]: again my third time

[beverley_thomson]: wow

[kel]: the life of the life of a
teacher life of an other tey with your

[kel]: summers off just so easy i wouldn't
say as maybe you need those breaks more

[kel]: than others i would they're well earned
well we're glad to have you back it

[kel]: was an interesting podcast last week because
we were talking about the umbrella review study

[kel]: on sarah to nan and its association
with depression so fortuitous guests that we have

[kel]: today in the same same realm in
the same area our guest today is beverly

[kel]: thompson she's a resort sure author of
mental health advocate with experts and understanding the

[kel]: adverse effects of anti depressence including anti
depress and induced suicide amongst young people everley

[kel]: has worked with the british medical association
the scottish government and the u k council

[kel]: for evidence based psychiatry we just got
finished with her book she's the author of

[kel]: anti depressed break through examination of epidemic
anti depressing harm and dependent beverly welcome to

[kel]: the radically genuine podcast

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: she's paused a little bit

[beverley_thomson]: thank you for inviting me

[kel]: there you are

[beverley_thomson]: post

[kel]: from from the scottish highlands

[beverley_thomson]: i'm back

[kel]: yes she's

[beverley_thomson]: oh

[kel]: back

[beverley_thomson]: oh

[kel]: listen congratulations on the

[beverley_thomson]: okay

[kel]: book it's an outstanding resource but i
am really interested to know how you got

[kel]: focused and interested in this particular area

[beverley_thomson]: yeah it's a really really interesting story
from

[kel]: oh

[beverley_thomson]: point of view i'm probably not what
you would

[kel]: oh

[beverley_thomson]: expect and my experience isn't probably what
you would expect so i'm actually a graduate

[beverley_thomson]: in mark ing and languages and then
i moved to the highlands of scotland and

[beverley_thomson]: couldn't really find a job so i
decided to to do open university psychology and

[beverley_thomson]: went to work as a councillor

[kel]: oh

[beverley_thomson]: in schools so i worked in primary

[kel]: oh

[beverley_thomson]: and secondary schools and i think about
fifteen years ago also i can't exactly remember

[beverley_thomson]: started to notice that so much was
changing in terms of the way that we

[beverley_thomson]: were actually speaking about children and their
behavior and i started to notice that you

[beverley_thomson]: know a lot of the problems the
society problems they had and the school problems

[beverley_thomson]: that they had were actually blaming

[kel]: she

[beverley_thomson]: them

[kel]: froze

[beverley_thomson]: you know the language started to be
that we were blaming the child and for

[beverley_thomson]: not being able to cope with their
lives and i started to notice you know

[beverley_thomson]: the terms were being brought in like
you know i think he or she has

[beverley_thomson]: a d d or i think there's
something wrong with him and kind of spark

[beverley_thomson]: something in me and i i started
to think to myself i don't think this

[beverley_thomson]: is right but i don't think this
should be happening i don't think we should

[beverley_thomson]: be blaming children for not being able
to cope which you know sometimes as very

[beverley_thomson]: very difficult circumstances that children were finding
themselves in um so i started to research

[beverley_thomson]: i started to become interested in sort
of the wider aspect of the state of

[beverley_thomson]: our mental health and yeah i met
james davis who i'm sure you've probably interviewed

[beverley_thomson]: or know i did some work for
kep when they first launched on became i

[beverley_thomson]: have to say slightly obsessed with the
topic

[kel]: hm

[beverley_thomson]: yeah it's very easy isn't

[kel]: oh

[beverley_thomson]: it it's very easy to become

[kel]: right

[beverley_thomson]: sessed with the subject

[kel]: a

[beverley_thomson]: and from there

[kel]: oh

[beverley_thomson]: i've always loved writing i've always loved
reading and i thought to myself i'm going

[beverley_thomson]: to write a book about this

[kel]: well we're glad that you did it's

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: actually very easy to read and there's
tons of resources so for those who are

[kel]: our parents or who are currently on
anti sense or more importantly professionals out in

[kel]: the field really do recommend this as
a front line resource to understand the actual

[kel]: science and what can happen when you
start taking anti depressence specifically what can happen

[kel]: when you start taking it for an
extended period of time you were saying you

[kel]: were talking

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: about the course of your career

[beverley_thomson]: m

[kel]: where i've kind of witnessed the same
thing with the narrative change around emotional struggles

[kel]: somewhere long the line we started talking
about our emotional struggles from something that was

[kel]: a very normal aspect of kind of
growth and evolution in life with practical strategies

[kel]: and you know centuries of wisdom to
speaking about it as if it was some

[kel]: disease that somebody caught you know my
depression

[beverley_thomson]: yep

[kel]: my a d h d and that's
that you're inflicted with and potentially like this

[kel]: disease is something that you'd be inflicted
with for the rest of your life how

[kel]: did we get here

[beverley_thomson]: yeah well how did we get here
haven't we been gullible

[kel]: yeah

[beverley_thomson]: really when you think about it i
mean a gullible society i think we are

[beverley_thomson]: definitely you know one of the things
is that we have just brought into it

[beverley_thomson]: hook cline and sinker i mean how
can we have been at a society where

[beverley_thomson]: we have come to rely on serious
powerful psycho active drugs and not question it

[beverley_thomson]: how have we become a society where
we've allowed ourselves to do that

[kel]: m i think yeah i think we
had a discussion on bias at one point

[kel]: and this is purely an example of
our authority bias am i right just you

[kel]: have someone who the perceived knowledge is
they know more about this than you do

[kel]: so you trust them and even doctors

[beverley_thomson]: yep

[kel]: trust the farmasutocal company that spent millions
of dollars to develop a quote unquote solution

[kel]: so they trust the literature that's provided
to them and then they spew it out

[kel]: to their their clients when they come
in and they believe it to be true

[kel]: multiple authorities

[beverley_thomson]: yeah absolutely i think you know one
of the things that we have to think

[beverley_thomson]: about in years gone by you know
we all believe that doctor knows best and

[beverley_thomson]: that was something you know maybe in
the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies was acceptable

[beverley_thomson]: we're consumers of these drugs we live
in a society where we do three billion

[beverley_thomson]: google searches a

[kel]: oh

[beverley_thomson]: day how can how can we not
accept that we need to be better informed

[beverley_thomson]: about these powerful drugs that we take
how have we allowed that to happen

[kel]: i mean it's a great question one
of the things in your book that we've

[kel]: discussed quite

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: a bit is the chemical and balanced
myth and in your book at one

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: point you you point out how psychotropic
drugs work you explain how they work and

[kel]: you state

[beverley_thomson]: ah

[kel]: that they actually do not cure a
non existing chemical and balance rather they create

[kel]: one which affects people mental mentally and
physically many of those are unpredictable is that

[kel]: an accurate interpretation of what i read

[beverley_thomson]: yeah absolutely i mean we now

[kel]: yeah

[beverley_thomson]: know that i by the way you
know what we what we've heard recently was

[beverley_thomson]: it was an excellent umbrella

[kel]: eh

[beverley_thomson]: study excellent study but this is not
new i mean back to and somebody i

[beverley_thomson]: love quoting you know if we go
back to i think i think it was

[beverley_thomson]: nineteen eighty eight when no i think
it was nine ninety six actually that stephen

[beverley_thomson]: hayman who was the director of the
n i m h y you know he

[beverley_thomson]: talked about these psychiatric

[kel]: that's

[beverley_thomson]: drugs then and you know he talked
about how they are our normal new transmitter

[beverley_thomson]: activity he talked about how they quantitively
and qualatively change our brain so we've known

[beverley_thomson]: this for a very very long time
you know this isn't new we have known

[beverley_thomson]: it and i think i wrote a
paper in twenty four teen which talked about

[beverley_thomson]: the myth of the chemical in balance
and yes they don't cure our chemical and

[beverley_thomson]: balance they alter us they change us
change every aspect or have potential to change

[beverley_thomson]: every single aspect of our being

[kel]: let's get into the nittygrity i think
a lot of people

[beverley_thomson]: a

[kel]: who are listening to the podcast want
to know some specific details about anti depressions

[kel]: i have a story i remember a
friend

[beverley_thomson]: m

[kel]: of mine in college and i was
in college in the late nineteen nineties um

[kel]: was prescribed an anti depressant drug and
he found himself wandering in the middle of

[kel]: the city not knowing how he got
there and we've also had on our podcast

[kel]: a father who an experienced acathesia induced
homicidal ideation so those are some

[beverley_thomson]: yep

[kel]: of the extreme aspects of of taking
a drug and impacting everybody differently but let's

[kel]: what are the dangers of anti depressince
in your research what are we actually observing

[kel]: in both clinical practice and anything that
we know from research trials

[beverley_thomson]: okay well first two things i have
to say is that nobody knows how an

[beverley_thomson]: anti depressant will affect you so everybody
can be affected in a in a unique

[beverley_thomson]: way so there is no predictable here
there are no predictable

[kel]: yes

[beverley_thomson]: so there's no way anybody can say
okay take this anti press and this particular

[kel]: to

[beverley_thomson]: dose and this is what will happen
to you okay it's a bit of a

[beverley_thomson]: russian roulet in some ways you know

[kel]: yeah

[beverley_thomson]: some people some people manage fine and
some people don't so that's that's really the

[beverley_thomson]: first thing that i have to say
the other thing that i have to say

[beverley_thomson]: in terms of you know what we
actually know about whether it be adverse effects

[beverley_thomson]: or long term effects really mostly from
anecdotal evidence

[kel]: oh

[beverley_thomson]: that's you know that's where we're getting
the true information from you know

[kel]: perfect

[beverley_thomson]: these people that have been on these
drugs for thirty years who are now having

[beverley_thomson]: horrendous heart breaking experiences um and are
suffering really suffering because of these drugs we

[beverley_thomson]: don't have we need vitally need independent
research and i'm sure you'll agree with me

[beverley_thomson]: there you know that's one thing that
we desperately need but we really have very

[beverley_thomson]: little research in terms of what is
happening to people but we know some of

[beverley_thomson]: the effects effects can be incredibly varied
but they can be serious life changing life

[beverley_thomson]: altering and sometimes fatal

[kel]: i think what's most concerning to me
is how

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: physicians communicate them to patients and families
as if they're rather benign um there's

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: there's no we don't talk about dependents
and they think they speak with their clients

[kel]: mostly in terms of the potential benefits
and really minimize any potential risk in fact

[kel]: almost speaking as if those risks are
quite rare and quite mild

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: and

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: beverley i'm assuming that the reason they
speak about the drugs in this way is

[kel]: because that's what's communicated to them through
pharmasutical marketers is that your impression as well

[beverley_thomson]: yeah absolutely and i think even though
most doctors are beginning to realize that a

[beverley_thomson]: lot of the the a lot of
the adverse effects that patients come back to

[beverley_thomson]: them tell them about because of the
drugs that they still don't inform patients as

[beverley_thomson]: they should about the adverse effects shall
i read the john reed studying twenty team

[beverley_thomson]: because that might be yea so there
was a twenty eight ten study which i

[beverley_thomson]: have in my book and asking people
directly reveals far higher rates of adverse respond

[beverley_thomson]: sister antiantipressence than previously understood especially in
the emotional psychological and in personal domains so

[beverley_thomson]: this on nine survey looked at one
thousand and four hundred and thirty one people

[beverley_thomson]: in thirty eight countries so when when
you listen to these statistics i mean this

[beverley_thomson]: just really really tells you about how
serious some of these effects are so feeling

[beverley_thomson]: emotionally numb seventy point six per cent
feeling foggy or detached seventy percent feeling not

[beverley_thomson]: like myself sixty six per cent sexual
difficulties sixty six per cent drowsy sixty two

[beverley_thomson]: percent reduction in positive feelings sixty point
four per cent you know distorted dreams fifty

[beverley_thomson]: nine percent umsuicideality fifty point three percent
half the people who in the in this

[beverley_thomson]: survey said that they had some form
of suicideality i mean this is crazy isn't

[beverley_thomson]: it

[kel]: it is crazy and i mean i've
mentioned this i actually had gone to a

[kel]: doctor young when i was young and
i was

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: i was diagnosed within fifteen minutes

[beverley_thomson]: oh

[kel]: and i remember now we were asking
well are there my mom was with me

[kel]: and she asked is this something that
it will have to be on for the

[kel]: rest of his life is it okay
he was it was very dismissive verybody's doing

[kel]: it's okay it's kind of like you

[beverley_thomson]: oh

[kel]: know it'll

[beverley_thomson]: oh

[kel]: be fine there were no we were
not given any type of chance to just

[kel]: think

[beverley_thomson]: oh

[kel]: about it or go home take a
month or two and you know if things

[kel]: don't get better we were just told
this is your solution here you go i

[kel]: was fortunate

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: to not you know to not stay
on it i was on for a very

[kel]: short period of time but in that
short period of time i can tell you

[kel]: i experienced several of what you just
said

[beverley_thomson]: absolutely that is you know that is
so typical

[kel]: oh

[beverley_thomson]: because it's not until things start to
go wrong that people start to question why

[beverley_thomson]: do we wait until it's too late
and things start to go wrong and we

[beverley_thomson]: start to have these adverse effects that
we start to question the drugs

[kel]: yeah

[beverley_thomson]: should we be questioning them from the
beginning before

[kel]: there's no doubt

[beverley_thomson]: we even take them

[kel]: yeah in the united states here and
and we're we're working with parents who have

[kel]: kids who are struggling with depression anxiety
and self injury or suicidal thoughts and one

[kel]: of the feedback that we're getting from
parents is that

[beverley_thomson]: oh

[kel]: they feel almost guilted into the prescription
from prescribers as if

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: it is there front line treatment and
the most effective treatment for developing teen agers

[kel]: and and young adults universally parents are
kind of saying they make us feel like

[kel]: we're a bad parent if we do
not follow medical advice but yet you're

[beverley_thomson]: yep

[kel]: you have a chapter special chapter on
this for young people and it is so

[kel]: clear and i've done my obsessive research
as well that we don't have really any

[kel]: data that suggests that these psychiatric drugs
these s s r is have any positive

[kel]: impact and almost overwhelming evidence that suggests
that they can and will create harm

[beverley_thomson]: absolutely absolutely and i think the thing
that we have to think about especially with

[beverley_thomson]: child now with children is it's moral
issue isn't it we have already said that

[beverley_thomson]: these these drugs change your brain change
the structure of your brain who has the

[beverley_thomson]: right to do that to their child
who has the right to change their child's

[beverley_thomson]: brain

[kel]: yeah yeah i don't i don't understand
that i guess i agree with with roger

[kel]: i think based off of the experience
that i had it's almost as if a

[kel]: parent may not be able have enough
stand up for themselves at the very moment

[kel]: that they are told this is the
only solution and i think that

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: yeah go ahead

[beverley_thomson]: yeah sorry and i was if you
think about

[kel]: i

[beverley_thomson]: it from

[kel]: don't

[beverley_thomson]: from a cultural perspective they've already parents
have already brought into this idea that you

[beverley_thomson]: know here's a drug and the drug
will fix you so

[kel]: oh

[beverley_thomson]: it's the first thing that they're going
to do they haven't questioned it for themselves

[beverley_thomson]: so why are they going to question
it for

[kel]: m

[beverley_thomson]: their child

[kel]: so beverly one of the the areas
and i think we're touching on the fact

[kel]: that a lot of parents just don't
understand right they trust their doctors in terms

[kel]: of the research that you've done in
some of the resource you provided um in

[kel]: the back of your book what

[beverley_thomson]: yes

[kel]: are what do you feel is the
most appropriate place to send a parent who

[kel]: at this point might be considering or
it's maybe being forced upon them where they

[kel]: can go and really just get a
nonjudgemental view of what others are seeing out

[kel]: there that they can read themselves

[beverley_thomson]: yeah it's difficult isn't

[kel]: yes

[beverley_thomson]: it

[kel]: it is

[beverley_thomson]: it's really difficult because we have to
one of the things that we have to

[beverley_thomson]: take

[kel]: oh

[beverley_thomson]: into account is for you it's even
more difficult because you have farmer advertising on

[beverley_thomson]: your t v screen

[kel]: m

[beverley_thomson]: every how

[kel]: m

[beverley_thomson]: many seconds of the day but you
know it's really hard to find information that

[beverley_thomson]: a reliable information you can trust without
being biassed because everyone who they will meet

[beverley_thomson]: whether it being an educational environment whether
it be you know their friends whether well

[beverley_thomson]: have already brought into this notion so
you know what roger and i are trying

[beverley_thomson]: to do and we're trying to change
this concept were trying to change but this

[beverley_thomson]: is not easy this is not easy
and and i hope that my book which

[beverley_thomson]: i did try to write an accessible
way and i didn't try i didn't use

[beverley_thomson]: medical language or academic language so i
really it will be you know a starting

[beverley_thomson]: point and

[kel]: yeah

[beverley_thomson]: other people will write similar books to

[kel]: hm

[beverley_thomson]: that that can really help people yeah
i'm hoping that education will be a place

[beverley_thomson]: where we really start to see see
this changing but you know i'm in the

[beverley_thomson]: highlands of scotland and i think it's
very different where you are you know we're

[beverley_thomson]: bombarded with messages aren't we on social
media in the media about our mental health

[beverley_thomson]: about deserving parity with our physical health
and you have a right to take a

[beverley_thomson]: drug you want to

[kel]: yeah

[beverley_thomson]: how we're going to change it

[kel]: that's

[beverley_thomson]: we're going to try i'm going to
try

[kel]: it

[beverley_thomson]: but

[kel]: and getting conversations like this out is
one step but you're right there's an enormous

[kel]: amount of advertising especially for all these
new um absolutions where someone could immediately go

[kel]: and answer a few questions and get
access to an anti depressing medication through the

[kel]: mail is

[beverley_thomson]: m

[kel]: to me i interpreted as if the
medical community and a lot of doctors are

[kel]: becoming more aware of the long term
effects and the side effects and the harm

[kel]: it's being done that one way to
get around that is to remove the doctors

[kel]: from the process and just go direct
to consumer which is

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: to me i'm going to be a
whole another level of aware is that needs

[kel]: to get out there

[beverley_thomson]: yeah i think i think one of
the problems in terms of children that i

[beverley_thomson]: really really i'm so worried about is
you know a lot of children are now

[beverley_thomson]: put on these drugs at such a
young age and when they become adults they're

[beverley_thomson]: already dependent on these drugs and if
they don't have the knowledge about these drugs

[beverley_thomson]: and the information that they shouldn't stop
these drugs suddenly or you know they need

[beverley_thomson]: to be informed about the harms that
they can do we are seeing and i

[beverley_thomson]: haven't the you now the evidence of
it we're seeing the suicide rates for example

[beverley_thomson]: in university is rocket and that's because
the kids on these drugs o move away

[beverley_thomson]: from the security of their parents the
usual prescribe the they go away to university

[beverley_thomson]: they go i don't need this drug
they stopped taking it

[kel]: yeah

[beverley_thomson]: this is dangerous

[kel]: yea this is a good direction to
get into because we are seeing these increasing

[kel]: rates of suicide events and many people
are attributing that to a need for mental

[kel]: health intervention which

[beverley_thomson]: oh

[kel]: is more psychometric drugs and there they're
unknowingly um you know making comments that you

[kel]: know when one stops their drug it
is as there is evidence that that mental

[kel]: health condition is returning that depression is
returning what do we expect to happen if

[kel]: somebody abruptly stops taking psychiatric gs that
they were prescribed

[beverley_thomson]: yeah no one should ever abruptly stop
taking psychiatric drugs unless it's on the advice

[beverley_thomson]: of a g p and there is
specific reason for it but so if we

[beverley_thomson]: look at what happened when we take
these drugs so we have a normal normal

[beverley_thomson]: balance state without the drug as soon
as we start to take the drug

[beverley_thomson]: as we've said these drugs act on
our brain chemistry and our normal state is

[beverley_thomson]: becomes different so eventually if we take
this drug to a period of time we

[beverley_thomson]: achieve a new balance state okay might
not be a great balance state it might

[beverley_thomson]: be one with adverse effects it might
be we achieve a new balance state so

[beverley_thomson]: as soon as you reduce or stop
taking these drugs especially if you do it

[beverley_thomson]: abruptly this balance tate becomes very unbalanced
and that can be psychologically and it can

[beverley_thomson]: be physiologically as well

[kel]: is

[beverley_thomson]: so

[kel]: i

[beverley_thomson]: this is why we have such increasing
cases of acesier because people are stopping these

[beverley_thomson]: drugs so suddenly and becoming so unbalanced
and this is really really incredibly anjerous and

[beverley_thomson]: it's something that i think acesier is
the one thing that in particular we need

[beverley_thomson]: more people to understand

[kel]: i was going to ask you can
you discuss a little it because in your

[kel]: book you have you have a pretty
big section of it and then you also

[kel]: describe the there are four types can
you tell us a little bit about that

[beverley_thomson]: yeah so acts is a neurological drug
induced condition and it's not just antprescente there

[beverley_thomson]: are other drugs that can induce this
state so i think i describe it and

[beverley_thomson]: a lot of people have said to
me we jokingly say sometimes i'm losing my

[beverley_thomson]: mind these people literally lose their mind
and they lose control of their mind so

[beverley_thomson]: they have constant intrusive thoughts it's really
interesting and really quite heartbreaking that most of

[beverley_thomson]: these thoughts that these people have really
funny though isn't it they don't have happy

[beverley_thomson]: thoughts they don't go and line the
beach to have it's lying on the beach

[beverley_thomson]: somewhere or you know going to their
favorite restaurant or they have thoughts of most

[beverley_thomson]: two common ones are there have sorts
of killing themselves they have thoughts of killing

[beverley_thomson]: someone else

[kel]: m

[beverley_thomson]: and those acts those are the two
most constant and people

[kel]: yeah

[beverley_thomson]: end up killing themselves when they have
acathesia there are two different ways so the

[beverley_thomson]: first is they have such such incredibly
awful symptoms that be restless restlessness or agitation

[beverley_thomson]: or pain or that they literally can't
stand them any more and they choose to

[beverley_thomson]: kill themselves and the second one is
it's not so much that they choose to

[beverley_thomson]: kill themselves actually fight to stay alive
but these intrusive voices these intrusive voices get

[beverley_thomson]: to the point where they actually give
in the voice is that i to the

[beverley_thomson]: voice that is telling them to kill
themselves

[kel]: and i think the challenge especially with
young people is there not always the most

[kel]: disciplined of people so it's very easy
to miss a dose or if you're at

[kel]: university and you start you know eating
or drinking alcohol or you have some sleep

[kel]: disruption there's we see then that those
severe adverse consequences can occur and younger people

[kel]: like high school students and i hear
this quite frequently if they if they miss

[kel]: a dose or you know they've been
they've been ill or sick and they stopped

[kel]: taking it for a couple of days
reaction to those drugs it can be so

[kel]: severe that

[beverley_thomson]: yep

[kel]: their parents actually believe that that is
evidence of a chemical and balance that requires

[kel]: the drug for for life and they
do not understand that the drug self or

[kel]: the withdrawal

[beverley_thomson]: as caused

[kel]: effect of

[beverley_thomson]: it

[kel]: that drug creates those exact symptoms i
wanted to bring up

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: the tad's study because it is front
line care here in the united states that

[kel]: when a teenager is experiencing suicidal idiation
hand that could just be thoughts or it

[kel]: could be self injury and they are
admitted into a psychiatric hospital or they're in

[kel]: some form of out patient treatment it
is believed that in anti depression should be

[kel]: a front line treatment for such a
condition what does the science and what does

[kel]: our research say you talked about the
tad's study

[beverley_thomson]: oh i can't even this is really
you got cut me off guard here i

[beverley_thomson]: should i should actually know this but
i think that the thing that we can

[beverley_thomson]: take from it is that real life
patients as opposed to the research participants the

[beverley_thomson]: adverse effects were much more frequent much
more serious and much more long lasting than

[beverley_thomson]: they were in the research

[kel]: yeah i do

[beverley_thomson]: patients

[kel]: i have some data on this i
just pulled it up to so you go

[kel]: ahead watch twenty two percent of

[beverley_thomson]: hm

[kel]: adolescence on an s s or i
had a suicide event compared to six point

[kel]: seven percent

[beverley_thomson]: oh

[kel]: of those not taking drug

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: we also know

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: in short term farm clinical trials um
teams on the drugs were more than twice

[kel]: as likely to become suicidal

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: compared to placebo so here we are

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: we actually see in clinical practice that
doctors are prescribing a drug that's going to

[kel]: increase suicideality and at this point isn't
it can we just say that evidence based

[kel]: mental health care is just a yeah

[beverley_thomson]: it's an absolute miss an absolute miss
and you know everyone i say everyone and

[beverley_thomson]: that's a big statement but just about
everyone who ends up in some kind of

[beverley_thomson]: clinic setting for their mental health will
be prescribed more drugs

[kel]: oh

[beverley_thomson]: it goes without saying there are never
solutions that don't involve

[kel]: yes

[beverley_thomson]: drugs or very rarely solutions that don't
involve drugs

[kel]: oh

[beverley_thomson]: and that's so sad isn't it

[kel]: it's very sad in your opinion should
children are adolescence um be prescribed anti to

[kel]: presence in any circumstances i mean we
do have to shiat the conversation to any

[kel]: perceived benefits but in your opinion is
there any situation where young people should be

[kel]: taking and into presence

[beverley_thomson]: well i can i think i can
only speak about that from my my personal

[beverley_thomson]: view as a mother would i give
my child anti presence never never

[kel]: yeah

[beverley_thomson]: no and i suppose you know you
can think about it from the perspective that

[beverley_thomson]: you know i know a lot more
about these drugs than most people and i've

[beverley_thomson]: heard a lot more know experiences of
young people who taken these drugs but would

[beverley_thomson]: i give my child antitepressance never

[kel]: beverly i feel obligated to ask had
you not done this research and written this

[kel]: book and grew interested in the subject
and so and your child was struggling would

[kel]: your approach have been the same or
do you feel like you're just more aware

[kel]: and more knowledgeable now

[beverley_thomson]: yes i think i don't

[kel]: eh

[beverley_thomson]: think i would have ever medicated my
child to be honest

[kel]: okay

[beverley_thomson]: i have always been my personal approach
as i have always taught my child speak

[beverley_thomson]: talk about what's going wrong to make
help him understand that life changes very quickly

[beverley_thomson]: especially for young people and what is
happening you know this week might have changed

[beverley_thomson]: in a month's time and normally things
move very quick so i don't think i

[beverley_thomson]: would have to be honest

[kel]: okay joanna moncreefe spoke about the perceived
benefits of anti depressant use and she blogged

[kel]: about it i think the primary one
is is optimism or hope so it's the

[kel]: idea that taking a drug in itself
if you are really suffering can provide that

[kel]: placebo response and i think the second
one that she generally speaks about is the

[kel]: emotional numbing or blunting of the drug
can for a small percentage of people be

[kel]: interpreted as something that is actually believing
or positive and so i just imagine that

[kel]: there are some people who are in
such intense negative pain some form of emotional

[kel]: blunting might be interpreted as helpful

[beverley_thomson]: hm

[kel]: but but then again when we look
at the adverse consequences the question is always

[kel]: for how long because the brain is
going to eventually adapt as you well said

[kel]: and then what are the you know
the potential long term effects of such a

[kel]: decision

[beverley_thomson]: yeah well first of all you know
i never say i never said that people

[beverley_thomson]: shouldn't take these drugs it's everyone's right
to take these drugs if they choose to

[beverley_thomson]: that is entirely up to them but
what i do so say is everybody should

[beverley_thomson]: be informed about these drugs slightly different
okay let's address one one well we'll address

[beverley_thomson]: the placebo effect first you know i
suppose the question is you know is is

[beverley_thomson]: the placebo effect is that justification for
taking powerful psycho active drugs my opinion probably

[beverley_thomson]: not um these powerful drugs also if
you think about it an no

[kel]: don't

[beverley_thomson]: one knows how long it takes for
somebody to become dependent on these drugs so

[beverley_thomson]: if you choose to take these because
as have a numbing effect and might help

[beverley_thomson]: you in a few months you know
over a few months or again is it

[beverley_thomson]: worth the risk i don't think it
is personally to be honest you know i

[beverley_thomson]: had an interesting conversation with nick for
tino recently about this and you know that

[beverley_thomson]: lots of other things that we can
do to help ourselves through very difficult times

[kel]: a

[beverley_thomson]: and to me taking pychotropic psycho active
powerful drugs it's not the answer

[kel]: so you're a huge proponent of people
giving themselves a lot of time to heal

[kel]: naturally and for that to happen they
would need to alter some of their life

[kel]: activities as a char in this kind
of system that we have at least in

[kel]: the u s a lot of a
lot of students over the course of years

[kel]: i've seen go through they've gotten their
diagnoses they've gone on medication parents have then

[kel]: um when the medication either didn't work
or they started to see those kind of

[kel]: side effects then they went into another
medication and so on and i feel like

[kel]: just i was when i was reading
your book i'm like you know if you

[kel]: allow people time to heal they're going
to have to make some changes in their

[kel]: lives and then young kids and students
high school student in particular they don't have

[kel]: the capability to make changes because the
system doesn't allow to make any changes

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: so they struggle

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: and have to enter that same environment
day after day and it's extremely difficult for

[kel]: them to make any real change that
could actually help them mentally what do you

[kel]: say o those parents whose those students
who believe they've exhausted the weight and and

[kel]: then they're like this is the only
thing we can do is turn to medication

[beverley_thomson]: well first of all i'm not a
psychologist so you know i can't give advice

[beverley_thomson]: as to what what

[kel]: yeah

[beverley_thomson]: i personally think that that should they
should do but you know e's study in

[beverley_thomson]: my

[kel]: and

[beverley_thomson]: book i think it was two thousand
six brand verse to that looked at the

[beverley_thomson]: fact that you know eighty five per
cent of people recover who have a depressive

[beverley_thomson]: episode recover within one year without any
treatment whatsoever so i think for children yes

[beverley_thomson]: it is more difficult because the social
circumstances that they find themselves are tough it's

[beverley_thomson]: tough for kids nowadays isn't it

[kel]: oh absolutely

[beverley_thomson]: it's not easy it's tough you know
there is no getting away from it but

[beverley_thomson]: it was like we were talking about
before unless the system changes then how are

[beverley_thomson]: we going to help these kids

[kel]: haven't we altered our understanding of what
depression is if you look historically

[beverley_thomson]: m

[kel]: depression as as a really severe impairing
condition was quite rare and in actuality almost

[kel]: everybody is going to go through something
in their lifetime in some episode but now

[kel]: we're describing the normal ranges of adversity
as a met al illness and really it's

[kel]: kind

[beverley_thomson]: yep

[kel]: of industry driven and it's it's media
driven hasn't that altered the way that we

[kel]: we think about our own struggles over
the normal course of a lifetime

[beverley_thomson]: absolutely well we only have to listen
to children and young people when they talk

[beverley_thomson]: on t v and the language that
they now use and if you listen to

[beverley_thomson]: children talking on t v how often
do they use the word anxiety i'm anxious

[beverley_thomson]: how often do they use the word
i think i'm depressed i think i had

[beverley_thomson]: a panic

[kel]: this

[beverley_thomson]: i think this has just become part
of their life that they accept is going

[beverley_thomson]: to happen

[kel]: yes

[beverley_thomson]: to them at be honest you know
how are we going to change that because

[beverley_thomson]: we're fighting so many were fighting the
media that's for sure absolutely fighting the media

[beverley_thomson]: and this is a political issue isn't
it you know kids live with homelessness they

[beverley_thomson]: live with poverty they live with parents
who are unemployed parents who take drugs and

[beverley_thomson]: it's hard for them it's very good
telling a child who is to be resilient

[beverley_thomson]: but in lots of circumstances

[kel]: yeah

[beverley_thomson]: i used to teach program called resilient
kids and i remember i was in a

[beverley_thomson]: class room with you know i think
there was eight seven eight year old and

[beverley_thomson]: i was talking about resilience and how
they needed to be resilient and how they

[beverley_thomson]: and then i was driving home after
i taught this class and i started to

[beverley_thomson]: cry and i thought to myself i
have just

[kel]: yes

[beverley_thomson]: been telling a child who i know

[kel]: a

[beverley_thomson]: is going home who i know there
is heroine in the house who i know

[beverley_thomson]: has no food who i know won't
get breakfast tomorrow before they come i have

[beverley_thomson]: just been telling her to be resilient

[kel]: m m

[beverley_thomson]: how can i do that

[kel]: m

[beverley_thomson]: how do

[kel]: m

[beverley_thomson]: i have the right to do that
so these are these are these are political

[beverley_thomson]: issues and you know it's great for
you know

[kel]: oh

[beverley_thomson]: the politicians to say oh well it's
their mental health but actually it's not it's

[beverley_thomson]: all the cycle things that they should
be addressing and fixing to make us happier

[kel]: beverly how many children did you raise

[beverley_thomson]: one

[kel]: you have one so tell me and
you taught this class also how do you

[kel]: raise a

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: resilient child yeah

[beverley_thomson]: well i think i was very lucky
in that i had a child who is

[beverley_thomson]: very sporty

[kel]: hm

[beverley_thomson]: it was quite a talented socker player
and he was very active and he was

[beverley_thomson]: very fit and he loved being out
doors and he hated reading by the way

[beverley_thomson]: but he loved

[kel]: oh

[beverley_thomson]: kicking a football

[kel]: oh

[beverley_thomson]: round um and i think i was
just fortunate that i didn't have a child

[beverley_thomson]: who really ever had any issues with
friendship or with i was lucky i was

[beverley_thomson]: fortunate i really was and this isn't
the norm this really isn't the norm

[kel]: m i think when you speak about
that child who has to go home into

[kel]: an environment maybe it's a broken home
or there's you know there's drug addiction or

[kel]: there's violence it's the community supports it's
that school system it's people who take an

[kel]: interest in that person who show that
that child some love and support and encouragement

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: and when we start labeling kids like
that

[beverley_thomson]: ah

[kel]: as a d h d or that
they have depression then we start medicalizing and

[kel]: drugging normal and expected reactions to adverse
conditions and that's really the disappointing

[beverley_thomson]: yep

[kel]: thing that's kind of evolved in our
society because if we're going to be if

[kel]: we're gonna be better as a community
we're gonna be better as health care professionals

[kel]: that we have to understand what is
the normal and expected reactions to adverse conditions

[kel]: and not medicalize those responses but yet
know how to support them nurture them and

[kel]: then ultimately

[beverley_thomson]: s

[kel]: then build those those skills in resilience
when they get of an age where they

[kel]: have more independence

[beverley_thomson]: absolutely i totally agree but you know
and i'm as much as we can we

[beverley_thomson]: need to sport children and some of
the programs that now put into schools a

[beverley_thomson]: fantastic programs but he don't work for
every child they really don't work for every

[beverley_thomson]: child and we need a more personalized
approach for children who really are going through

[beverley_thomson]: difficulties

[kel]: we have a different medical system here
in the united states the u k from

[kel]: what i understand is more of a
universal health care system so the government is

[kel]: much more involved in the treatment of
their citizens you have worked with the scottish

[kel]: government i think you've also consulted and
worked with the u k council for evidence

[kel]: based psychiatry the british medical association i
am fascinating ly curious about how medical professionals

[kel]: and government

[beverley_thomson]: m

[kel]: view psychiatric drugs in your region

[beverley_thomson]: oh in my region well in scotland
we have the highest antipressent prescribing rates in

[beverley_thomson]: the u k i was on a
news and culture programme recently because the media

[beverley_thomson]: here are so concerned about the over
prescribing of young people over prescribing avanti presence

[beverley_thomson]: to young people in scotland and this
as you just said a political decision so

[beverley_thomson]: we started a petition in scotland i
think it was in two thousand and seventeen

[beverley_thomson]: and we asked the scottish government i
think it's the first one that's ever been

[beverley_thomson]: done at we asked the scottish government
to look at how they can help people

[beverley_thomson]: who have been harmed by dependent on
scribe medication i sat on a strategic strategy

[beverley_thomson]: group for gave lots of my time
and did so much work and guess what

[beverley_thomson]: happened sing

[kel]: h m

[beverley_thomson]: nothing absolutely nothing

[kel]: why do you think that is

[beverley_thomson]: and we because it suits doesn't it
the status cost suits isn't it easier to

[beverley_thomson]: give a prescription than to try and
invest in you know the ways that we

[beverley_thomson]: can actually help young people nowadays it's
just easier still to let people believe that

[beverley_thomson]: it's their fault there's something wrong with
them it's their brain that's broken and it's

[beverley_thomson]: not the system

[kel]: feel like the campaign we need is
just to empower parents to say the word

[kel]: no you go to a doctor

[beverley_thomson]: absolutely

[kel]: and a doctor is starting to say
these things the parents first response has to

[kel]: be no there has to be something
else well we've talked about this in our

[kel]: podcast i don't know if you're aware
of this beverley in he united states are

[kel]: hospital systems which pretty much own all
our primary care doctors and the primary care

[kel]: facilities in our regions they are man
dating administration of screening measures and they usually

[kel]: very poorly constructed screening measures like the
p h q nine

[beverley_thomson]: oh

[kel]: and so each

[beverley_thomson]: oh

[kel]: die there is man dated to provide
this to children adolescence and even adults as

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: a screening measure

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: which is highly sensitive and it's going
to over diagnose most people

[beverley_thomson]: oh

[kel]: with clinical depression and that then opens
the pathway to a prescription drug so i

[kel]: know on social medium myself i've outspoken
resist taking these screening measures parents do not

[kel]: let your kids take these screening measures

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: my goodness trust yourself you're going

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: to know if your kid is really
really struggling and then you have to trust

[kel]: your own instinct about what you're your
would need hm

[beverley_thomson]: yeah absolutely but you know and if
we could educate parents about what these drugs

[beverley_thomson]: actually do and they knew about the
harms that they could cause and they would

[beverley_thomson]: they would be they would be thinking
twice about giving children these drugs it's not

[beverley_thomson]: you know life's hard for parents and
parents too isn't it it's not easy but

[beverley_thomson]: drugging children is not the answer

[kel]: yeah so great

[beverley_thomson]: and these re we're starting to actually
introduce screening programs as well in some parts

[beverley_thomson]: of the u k and you know
we're told to

[kel]: oh

[beverley_thomson]: problem means that i think a lot
of the time screening is done really subconsciously

[beverley_thomson]: especially by prescribers you know they don't
actually get the screen out you know they

[beverley_thomson]: don't actually get the gad seven or
the phkding out and they do ask you

[beverley_thomson]: specific questions but their programme to do
it

[kel]: there's no doubt

[beverley_thomson]: a programme did

[kel]: so there's a great quote that begins
one of the chapters and it ends with

[kel]: this everybody who made the commercial because
it was talking you were talking about big

[kel]: farm and commercials and advertisements has a
financial interest in your future ehavior and that

[kel]: is so

[beverley_thomson]: yep

[kel]: telling and i wish more people would
understand that part of this narrative that we've

[kel]: now seen for the last thirty forty
years it's funny because our government officials here

[kel]: are constantly high lighting things like it's
national mental health month you know we have

[kel]: a mental health crisis but the one
thing that they could probably do right now

[kel]: to improve everyone's mental health is to
put a ban on advertising of these of

[kel]: these would you grue hat

[beverley_thomson]: yeah i absolutely you know taking medic
these drugs and medication this medication isn't keeping

[beverley_thomson]: us healthy it's not keeping us healthy
it's making our society sicker and i think

[beverley_thomson]: you know

[kel]: a

[beverley_thomson]: i don't know whether you're spoken to
m i had brain freezing

[kel]: h

[beverley_thomson]: um

[kel]: m

[beverley_thomson]: and you know he's spoken for a
long time by the fact that you know

[beverley_thomson]: mental health messages are moving is sicker
they really are making a sicker as a

[beverley_thomson]: society we need to change the narrative
don't we

[kel]: absolutely we certainly do and i'd like
to come up with some you know helpful

[kel]: solutions for that for that next step
one of the things that's really important we

[kel]: talk about messaging around to health is
the more that you are focused and attentive

[kel]: on your internal experience and the judgment
of that everything that i understand about emotion

[kel]: regulation the judgment the invalidation and the
distortion of our internal experience creates much more

[kel]: distress so although we have all these
decreased stigma campaigns and you must focus on

[kel]: your mental health everything i know about
creating a life worth living and dealing with

[kel]: the complex emotions that we have is
to direct our attention outward away from ourselves

[kel]: into our world you spoke about your
son and with football and athletics and connection

[kel]: with nature that's with the relationships that
we nurture in our health it's getting back

[kel]: to developing a purpose in our lives
the more you focus on yourself the more

[kel]: miserable you're going to be

[beverley_thomson]: yeah you talked about there you know
and i don't know you talk about a

[beverley_thomson]: lot about you having a life worth
living and having a these drugs

[kel]: no

[beverley_thomson]: aren't giving most people who take them
a life worth living on for many people

[beverley_thomson]: they're just the start many problems and
i talked a lot but my book about

[beverley_thomson]: now medically on explained symptoms and people
then being given for the diagnoses and then

[beverley_thomson]: people being drugged further just just five
minutes in a prescriber's office can be the

[beverley_thomson]: start as a lifelong psychiatric patient five
minutes for something that is you know you

[beverley_thomson]: lost your job girl friend left you
oh yes can be the start of a

[beverley_thomson]: journey as a lifelong psychiatric patient this
is sad i is really sad

[kel]: yeah unfortunately these drugs are being more
widely prescribed to conditions that they weren't even

[kel]: initially evaluated for chronic pain

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: is an example anarexia where we know
the food is the actual medicine being eating

[kel]: there's drugs being provided for the elderly
in homes or just for being lonely now

[kel]: they're putting people lawn on prescription drug

[beverley_thomson]: loneliness as you know an epidemic

[kel]: yes

[beverley_thomson]: it really is an epidemic and you
know it's so easy to drug especially the

[beverley_thomson]: elderly when it comes to when when
they are only on

[kel]: it's

[beverley_thomson]: it's

[kel]: to

[beverley_thomson]: so sad really isn't it that we
aren't giving the elder leader the passion and

[beverley_thomson]: the compassion and the what they deserve
instead we're drugging them drugging them

[kel]: i realize the simple thing you can
do

[beverley_thomson]: s

[kel]: for anyone who's who's older is just
sit down with them and have a conversation

[kel]: i could sit down with my grandfather
who's now going to be turning ninety four

[kel]: years old and he could talk talk
and talk and that would make his day

[beverley_thomson]: hm

[kel]: is to just tell you the stories
and the wisdom that he accumulated through all

[kel]: those years nd you know you get
a lot out of it yourself to just

[kel]: even betting up old photographs and i
tell you the same

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: story over and over again like my
mom loves doing that you know that's that's

[beverley_thomson]: it's a it's a system again isn't
it you know it's it's much cheaper and

[beverley_thomson]: cost effective to give somebody a cheap
generic drug it is to employ people

[kel]: m

[beverley_thomson]: to walk

[kel]: m

[beverley_thomson]: with these people it's much too per
and easier

[kel]: yeah it's almost like if we got
visited by highly evolved beings from another planet

[kel]: one of the things that they would
be kind of critical of our culture is

[kel]: how the elderly are treated the ones
with the most amount of wisdom seem to

[kel]: have the least value and in our
society it really is a western culture is

[kel]: really a society and culture for young
people you know it's about it's about fame

[kel]: and it's about achievement and it's about
you know living your best life and there's

[kel]: so many though whether it's the social

[beverley_thomson]: ah

[kel]: media marketing and and those who really
know put themselves out there it's like there's

[kel]: a worship of young impulsive stupid behavior
at the expense of the wisdom of elders

[beverley_thomson]: it's almost like when you have no
longer have any cultural value just drug

[kel]: a

[beverley_thomson]: you and forget about you

[kel]: yeah and

[beverley_thomson]: but these people do have cultural value
they have a great deal to add to

[beverley_thomson]: to society and a great deal to
contribute and you know we shouldn't be drugging

[beverley_thomson]: elderly

[kel]: yeah

[beverley_thomson]: society

[kel]: yeah i would say there's a lot
we can learn from a lot of other

[kel]: cultures especially central america a lot of
the asian countries and even in some countries

[kel]: in europe is the importance of this
household of the generations of family raising one

[kel]: another because there's lessons

[beverley_thomson]: hm

[kel]: that can be learned and that

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: wisdom gets passed down to multiple generations
and things that a grandmother would say to

[kel]: you at a young just can stick
with you for years and then you pass

[kel]: it on to the generation afterwards i
often reflect back on here in the united

[kel]: states why we've lost this way when
it comes to diet and some of the

[kel]: medicinal benefits of certain meals and the
way things are cooked because we came here

[kel]: and we often didn't have that grandmother
of that grandfather with us a lot of

[kel]: us immigrated in our twenties and then
we were on our own trying to figure

[kel]: things out and we just kind of
fell into this industrial country and we just

[kel]: had our own solutions we lost out
on that wisdom and now we're finding it

[kel]: through the internet but we need to
bring our grandparents back into the house an

[kel]: live with us you talk about self
sufficiency and resiliency and those key things being

[kel]: gone and in younger generations not able
to think for themselves i think that you

[kel]: hit a very good point there the
families are kind of you know if there's

[kel]: more and more families that are breaking
apart there's more and more people that are

[kel]: putting their they're putting

[beverley_thomson]: frozen

[kel]: more emphasis on work you know their
careers

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: and things like that but as you
said it's part of the system once again

[kel]: we're a country

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: of large

[beverley_thomson]: absolutely

[kel]: empty homes

[beverley_thomson]: and i think that if you i
think i

[kel]: yeah

[beverley_thomson]: write about it at the end of
my book you know the the phmacytical industry's

[beverley_thomson]: next target

[kel]: ah

[beverley_thomson]: market market is asia pacific and

[kel]: yeah

[beverley_thomson]: that's the fastest growth up to i
think twenty twenty seven projected so i have

[beverley_thomson]: a friend who is from lanka and
i taught to him a lot about you

[beverley_thomson]: know my work and he laughs he
really laughs we've been through this we've been

[beverley_thomson]: through that we've we've coped with this
what is wrong with you people

[kel]: yeah

[beverley_thomson]: mind you if we look at what
we look at what's going on right now

[beverley_thomson]: in solancathey are having an awful lot
to go through

[kel]: so right

[beverley_thomson]: but but again it's

[kel]: they are

[beverley_thomson]: it's a cultural perspective isn't you know
it's how how they think they should try

[beverley_thomson]: to deal with things before they turn
to farmasitical drugs

[kel]: i agree beverly i was hoping that
there's somewhat of an awakening that is occurring

[beverley_thomson]: oh

[kel]: worldwide

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: with these drugs but then i look
at the numbers and i look at how

[kel]: many anti depressents are prescribed you have
any data on what how many how many

[kel]: anti depressents are currently being prescribed

[beverley_thomson]: well i think in the in england
alone where up to eight point three million

[beverley_thomson]: people who take an presence

[kel]: h

[beverley_thomson]: um

[kel]: m

[beverley_thomson]: i think the last statistics that i
had i think fortifive million people in the

[beverley_thomson]: states or around that who take antistepresses

[kel]: yeah that's unbelievable that's just how normalized
it has become and i think a take

[kel]: home message

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: here is there's no such thing as
a magic pill folks and this pill comes

[kel]: with really potential for severe adverse consequences
and when we're talking about age ranges when

[kel]: we're talking about those under the age
of twenty five likely based on the rapid

[kel]: changes of that developmental stage and the
rapid brain changes that occur the adverse consequences

[kel]: are much much greater it is

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: now time that you start asking very
serious questions to your diatritians primary care doctors

[kel]: and your psychiatrists one of the questions
i want everybody to ask especially to a

[kel]: psychiatrist or or a g p would
you take this drug yourself would you prescribe

[kel]: this drug to your own child or
adolescent given the situations that they're going through

[kel]: right now what are the adverse consequences
ask those questions i understand that there could

[kel]: be two and a half times greater
likelihood of suicide compared to a placebo if

[kel]: we're talking about this drug predominantly having
a placebo effect why don't you just give

[kel]: him a sugar pill why not something
else you know these are really important questions

[kel]: that you have to ask medical professionals
because i think blind faith in the medical

[kel]: authority it's over this time has ended
and these are the this is the type

[kel]: of book that you want to use
as a resource because what it does it

[kel]: provides

[beverley_thomson]: kay

[kel]: very compelling accounts from real people whose
lives have been harmed by prescription anti depressant

[kel]: it provides very clear scientific data and
evidence that there is no such thing as

[kel]: a magic pill and we can no
gor pretend otherwise because there are many people

[kel]: out there that've been on these drugs
way beyond any period that they've been studied

[kel]: and they need our help we need
study on future research on how to safely

[kel]: taper off these drugs and understand what
type of supplements or ancillary treatment that can

[kel]: maybe relieve the symptoms of withdraw more
importantly we have to prevent the next generation

[kel]: of going down a similar path

[beverley_thomson]: yeah absolutely i think it's important that
we remind everybody these drugs have an f

[beverley_thomson]: d a black box warning for people
under twenty five in terms of

[kel]: yeah

[beverley_thomson]: efficacy and suicidality if that's the case
why do

[kel]: ah

[beverley_thomson]: we go a doctor and have prescribed
to our child

[kel]: yeah

[beverley_thomson]: or a young person in our family
a drug that has an f d a

[beverley_thomson]: black box warning

[kel]: great point yeah beverly what do you
have going on now is there another book

[kel]: that you're starting to write what the
things are you doing professionally

[beverley_thomson]: yeah you love the title of this
one

[kel]: yeah

[beverley_thomson]: it's it's called the united state of
anxiety

[kel]: oh boy

[beverley_thomson]: the good old u s a

[kel]: there you go let's end that conversation
but i don't like being attacked

[beverley_thomson]: yes the united states it's about benzoteaspens
primarily but yeah

[kel]: excellent

[beverley_thomson]: think the good us

[kel]: m yeah unfortunately we are leading the
world and in this and the prescription drug

[kel]: market and mental health problems but it
is unfortunately exactly what we see every day

[kel]: in clinical practice it's it's that it's

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: that worry it's that overwhelming fear that
is certainly provoked by our media and it's

[kel]: provoked by our government you can understand
why we have such

[beverley_thomson]: yeah

[kel]: a mentally unwell nation right now where
can

[beverley_thomson]: yeah sorry you know i think you
know guys like yourselves who are inviting people

[beverley_thomson]: like me to to be able to
talk about our work and talk about our

[beverley_thomson]: experiences and most of all talk out
you know the experiences of real people and

[beverley_thomson]: i think that's where where change is
going to happen the more we hear about

[beverley_thomson]: the experiences of real people

[kel]: no doubt beverly how can people find
you how can they buy your book

[beverley_thomson]: they can find me on twitter at
anti depressed one um they can buy my

[beverley_thomson]: book on amazon or at any major
book store or sorry book site not really

[beverley_thomson]: book stores now

[kel]: oh

[beverley_thomson]: we don't really have many book store
book sites yeah and i am launching a

[beverley_thomson]: website very soon so which will be
called anti depressed and i hope that will

[beverley_thomson]: help people and have lots of resources
to

[kel]: great beverley we really appreciate your coming
on the program today yes thank

[beverley_thomson]: thank

[kel]: you

[beverley_thomson]: you so much for inviting me it's
really

[kel]: hm

[beverley_thomson]: nice to meet you all