Radically Genuine Podcast with Dr. Roger McFillin

INTERVIEW (MAIN) - EP212 - Dr. Anders Sorensen - Radically Genuine Podcast.txt
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00:00:00:05 - 00:00:31:24
Speaker 1
Welcome to the Radically Genuine podcast. I am doctor Roger McFillin. Chances are, if you are listening today, you are still in your infancy stages and how to utilize emotions and internal experiences for transformation. And one of the reasons for that is because it's been systematically brainwashed out of us. And we're going to expose that today. What's most important, though, is that I introduce you for the second time to doctor under Sorenson.

00:00:32:03 - 00:00:59:02
Speaker 1
He is an international expert in understanding mechanisms of psychiatric drugs. But most importantly, how to get off them and stay off them. Yes, it is epidemic. If you listen to our last episode, he provided us some valuable information on hyperbolic tapering and the science and the art of getting off and staying off drugs. He is the author of Crossing Zero The Art and science of Coming Off and Staying Off Psychiatric Drugs.

00:00:59:04 - 00:01:28:19
Speaker 1
He has an amazing Substack, which everybody would want to just kind of stop, pause, make sure you subscribe to under source. Since crossing zero, you know, he's from death, he's from Denmark, but he's now becoming an international, really star in this movement of exposing the harms of psychiatric drugs. But I see him as this I see him as an expert in what we term emotion regulation.

00:01:28:21 - 00:01:58:00
Speaker 1
And we're going to tap into that expertise today. It's a very important episode to be able to listen to what the most effective people do to guard their minds, to be able to, rise above challenges that exist in their lives, to overcome difficult and dark periods, fear, low mood, depression, everything that can really impact the human experience in a painful way.

00:01:58:02 - 00:02:03:15
Speaker 1
We're going to provide you a new perspective today, doctor under source. And welcome to the Radically Genuine Podcast.

00:02:03:15 - 00:02:04:12
Speaker 2
Thank you so much.

00:02:04:15 - 00:02:05:02
Speaker 1
How's your how's.

00:02:05:02 - 00:02:06:00
Speaker 2
Your great to be here again?

00:02:06:00 - 00:02:07:10
Speaker 1
That's your trip to the US spent.

00:02:07:11 - 00:02:09:11
Speaker 2
Perfect I love it I love being here.

00:02:09:13 - 00:02:21:06
Speaker 1
Yeah. We were both at the Inner Compass Initiative conference first annual. Yes. Want to get your sense of like what your experience was there? It was.

00:02:21:08 - 00:02:41:24
Speaker 2
Amazing. Like to share the room with people where we don't have to start with Adam and Eve about what the problems are and whether drugs are good or bad, and whether diagnosis are used for a lot and what an emotion is and stuff. So it was just always perfect to be in that space, because a lot of what we do in this field, at least a lot of what I do is, is the battle right?

00:02:42:01 - 00:02:57:06
Speaker 2
Like the arguing, the battle, the fighting with top leading psychiatrists who just don't get it. So the fact that there is and something balancing that out, an antidote to that, it's just it's good. It's what I need. It's exactly what I needed. Yeah.

00:02:57:06 - 00:03:19:06
Speaker 1
I love the energy of the conference. And for the audience, some people who were there, doctor Joanna moncrief, very important figure. And a psychiatrist. You know, she's from the UK. Robert Whittaker, author, mad in America. And probably his most influential book, which was,

00:03:19:08 - 00:03:20:02
Speaker 2
Anatomy and.

00:03:20:04 - 00:03:42:15
Speaker 1
Anatomy of an epidemic. Right. Like, that's something that's really important to read if you have him. Because from a journalist perspective, that's really I mean, that's the read comes all the way back to, you know, the pre drug era. And to see what, what has been done to Western societies with the introduction of these diagnoses and these drugs and the harms that created.

00:03:42:18 - 00:03:48:00
Speaker 1
But those, you know, those are two figures. Laura Delano obviously, who.

00:03:48:01 - 00:03:48:19
Speaker 2
My courage.

00:03:48:21 - 00:03:50:19
Speaker 1
Mark was.

00:03:50:21 - 00:03:52:04
Speaker 2
Molly Adler.

00:03:52:06 - 00:04:21:01
Speaker 1
Back from the borderline. Yeah. You as well. Thank you. And I was so impressed by your your talk. Thanks. And to me, it's more than just the knowledge that's provided. I said to a friend of mine that was there, this guy has peak emotional intelligence. Me? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. To know how do you see emotional intelligence?

00:04:21:03 - 00:04:30:05
Speaker 2
Well, awareness must be part of it, right? Can be intelligent. Can use it if you're not aware of what it is and isn't. I guess it starts with that.

00:04:30:07 - 00:04:38:02
Speaker 1
Yeah. And there was a theme to your talk about, the value of emotion. Yeah.

00:04:38:04 - 00:04:59:15
Speaker 2
So and maybe that's, you know, the topic, a good topic for today, because lastly, we covered a lot about the technical tapering stuff, which I also happen to be actually, what my research, my actual research and on that this are the geeky technical parts of, of tapering and avoiding withdrawal. But what I would say, what's more important to me and where I come from is the emotional stuff.

00:04:59:15 - 00:05:21:14
Speaker 2
So I really try to bring what I did then and here and then. My overall mission is to bring the emotions back into the, the, the tapering world, obviously, but also in the broader conversation. And it's not rocket science to understand that if you take drugs, that basically just which is what most of them do, numb and narrow your emotions.

00:05:21:16 - 00:05:37:08
Speaker 2
That part of coming off means that will resurface and that what is that? What? That's the people that are the question most people have. Like what is normal then? Well, what am I returning to? And if you have a.

00:05:37:10 - 00:05:38:20
Speaker 1
Wrong model.

00:05:38:22 - 00:05:49:09
Speaker 2
Of what you're returning to, what normal whatever that means. Emotions and minds are, then you're going to have a hell of a time adapting.

00:05:49:11 - 00:06:17:00
Speaker 1
I think a quarter of the American population has it taken at least one psychiatric drug. And one of my areas of focus was try to understand, the type of person who would turn to the medical industry to numb and narrow their emotions. Right. Tell me some characteristics of a of a person who would turn to drugs to numb a narrow.

00:06:17:02 - 00:06:47:11
Speaker 2
Well, in some sense, it's maybe one of the deepest psychological mechanisms, like truths about being human, is that we want to rid ourselves of pain. That's why it's there. Right? So I think it doesn't get any deeper than us wanting to. That's what motivates us to get away from pain. So in some sense, it's all of us depending on how we understand that mechanism.

00:06:47:13 - 00:07:13:13
Speaker 2
So and I used the same example last time I was here just to get everyone on board. The example of hunger, for example. It's pretty smart. That's unpleasant is the body can't seek out nutrition on its own, but it needs it. It needs some mode. So it needs to motivate us to do it. So it creates an unpleasant state that we then have to decode the good way to regulate it, regulate that it's not an emotion, but it's more like a state.

00:07:13:13 - 00:07:35:04
Speaker 2
But there's definitely an unpleasant element to it. The the clever way to regulate is that is to go eat. And then that signal turns off. Problem is, if we don't understand that mechanism in terms of all the other things we need as humans, love and connection and autonomy and and belonging.

00:07:35:04 - 00:07:36:19
Speaker 1
And.

00:07:36:21 - 00:08:01:15
Speaker 2
Goals and all sorts of other things. So I like to look at it like this, that we are not how to say this in English. We are not technically motivated to bring about the change the emotion calls for. That's its purpose. But I think the element of motivation is just to rid ourselves of that emotion, if that makes sense.

00:08:01:17 - 00:08:19:00
Speaker 2
Which is what opens up the door to all the problematic ways of regulating emotion, suppressing distraction, overthinking medication. So I think and that this is a long answer to a question that really pivots into those who get attracted to the medical model and those who don't.

00:08:19:02 - 00:08:36:11
Speaker 1
So let's keep let's continue with this metaphor about hunger drives us to eat. Right? So we know then that there's, a purpose for hunger. It's a survival mechanism. And you refer to it as a signal. But I think people don't understand their emotions in the same way.

00:08:36:11 - 00:09:02:06
Speaker 2
No, because we've gotten, as per your introduction, far away from that, because of the pain equals pathology or disorder or some negatively clinging word. But it's not. It's it's what we mean when we say emotions are a signals communication. It's even in the word. It's an emotion. So the word even implies something that tries to move us. So an emotion is something.

00:09:02:06 - 00:09:03:08
Speaker 2
It's a force.

00:09:03:10 - 00:09:03:24
Speaker 1
It is a force.

00:09:03:24 - 00:09:12:09
Speaker 2
It has to be a force because it's trying to to make us move, to drive us. So it wouldn't work if it wasn't extremely powerful.

00:09:12:11 - 00:09:57:07
Speaker 1
Yeah. So, I imagine in talking about things in terms of forces, the, the type of force that would be inspired to drive human beings to ignore signals, you know? So, in my talk at ISI, I did refer to this as, a spiritual battle. And the anti-human agenda is really to detach and disconnect us from a life force that is within us, to be able to thrive and, to be able to more than just survived.

00:09:57:07 - 00:10:16:17
Speaker 1
I think, you know, to be able to transcend, so I see it as a very intentional act to disrupt natural human processes. Can you could you imagine if someone like created a drug to not experience hunger? And the potential implications of that? Pretty stupid. Yeah.

00:10:16:19 - 00:10:42:11
Speaker 2
It's no wonder that. Well, then we cut off the signal, which is our, you know, our subjective day to day experience is just a signal. So we can definitely shut off a signal without providing the body what that signal was calling for. But it's not rocket science that the body would then have to scream louder and louder, and maybe find other ways of screaming to you.

00:10:42:13 - 00:10:54:15
Speaker 2
So I think that there is no. Situation where the message doesn't come out to us, just found other ways. And I imagine that for well, at the end, you'd just die.

00:10:54:19 - 00:11:10:18
Speaker 1
Pass the there is a condition where, I think it's quite rare where somebody doesn't experience pain. Right. And that's, that's very, very dangerous. Right. Because a person will die. Yes. Of course they won't have that signal.

00:11:10:20 - 00:11:33:07
Speaker 2
So we want the signal symptoms, you know, the most dangerous conditions are those that are dangerous, but no signs. And this and this exact. I hope listeners will understand this is just a metaphor for the more fluffy, deeper existential human needs. We also have, like, it's the exact same mechanism. So it's still a force. It's still a signal.

00:11:33:09 - 00:11:55:12
Speaker 2
It's just for the more, you know, fluffy psychological stuff of belonging. And so but it's the same mechanism. So if you astray from that diverge, you know, if you're not alignment with that, you'll, you'll, you'll know they'll try to communicate you two and the three main sources in the like in the effective sciences of how that compass works is what we call goals, values and needs.

00:11:55:18 - 00:12:22:06
Speaker 2
So just to get everyone on board, everyone has something they want and everyone has something they need, and everyone has something they value. And depending on how it goes with those things and how well you're in alignment with it, which obviously involves you understanding that it's a message. That's why we're having this conversation. Then you'll feel pain or you're more or less pain.

00:12:22:08 - 00:12:54:04
Speaker 2
And that's why the metaphor of a compass comes in. So the compass is just trying. The emotional compass is just trying to point you towards those three things need values, goals. And I really I love the idea I and I try to the best of my skills to describe this in my book to. I just love the idea of there being something inside me or above me a where you want to place it that knows what I need and want and value.

00:12:54:06 - 00:13:05:17
Speaker 2
And my job is to try to understand that and, you know, understand the message. When I for some reason and there could be many reasons when I, you know, stray. Is that the word? You know.

00:13:05:19 - 00:13:06:08
Speaker 2
What's the word.

00:13:06:08 - 00:13:08:20
Speaker 1
Here. Stray works. Yeah.

00:13:08:22 - 00:13:19:15
Speaker 2
Away from those. So then I'll get a signal. Just as if I don't eat for a certain part of time. I know, and now the fact that we've called that a disease and the illness pathology.

00:13:19:17 - 00:13:45:16
Speaker 1
Is a problem. So we were. You spent the weekend with me. We went for a walk on a path in the Delaware River. You know, in nature it's cold. But we were walking anyway, we found ourselves in this conversation about, emotion regulation and mental health. I expressed some concern about using that word regulation, and I'll try to articulate that.

00:13:45:16 - 00:14:11:10
Speaker 1
But let's say that there's, three paths that one can take. One is the current path. In psychiatry, emotions are a symptom. Mental health, mental quote unquote health. You're healthy if you feel less of them. Right. So, emotional distress means mental illness. Pain means something that we need to numb and narrow, and then that's a positive outcome.

00:14:11:10 - 00:14:33:19
Speaker 1
If you feel less. That's one paradigm. Sounds almost ridiculous, saying I can't believe we bought into this to the degree that we have, because it just seems so obviously harmful. I think the the other kind of approach here, which we started talking about is, really around the emotions being neutral, right? Thoughts too, like there's no such thing as an intrusive thought because of a thought becomes intrusive.

00:14:33:19 - 00:15:14:06
Speaker 1
You've given it power. It can't be there. You're not in a neutral stance, right? Or any type of emotion, no matter how painful it is. Anxiety, the darkness of despair or emptiness or distress or pain, we can take a neutral stance with it and observe it almost with a degree of detachment. But I'm afraid that that limits our ability to allow that emotion to be in motion, because detachment with it, although it can still sellotape a degree of a lessening of pain because there's a paradoxical effect with emotions.

00:15:14:08 - 00:15:48:09
Speaker 1
I brought up a third option, right. Which I think is going to be challenging for a lot of people because the again, pleasure principle, like it's within us to try to avoid pain and seek out pleasure. Mine was to fully embrace all emotional states and even thoughts. With a gratitude and even a love for that human experience, to really, really see it as a blessing and to be grateful for what that message is.

00:15:48:11 - 00:16:04:15
Speaker 1
So I want to throw over to you, you know, those thoughts that I was sharing with you and get, you know, how you're thinking about it. Because to me, regulate means you have to do something with it to turn the dial down. And I feel like that's too close to the same psychiatric. Exactly.

00:16:04:17 - 00:16:41:18
Speaker 2
And I love terminology. Readers of my book will know, you know, and of me. So this is important, which is why we also don't like words like pathology or illness or disorder or all this or diagnosis. Have a d the fucking disorder at the end. Okay, so regulate emotion regulation. See if I can remember the definition. That is just action that people's take to to change their emotion, how they feel it or how they express it are actions taken by a person to change or amplify or lose their emotion.

00:16:41:18 - 00:17:07:19
Speaker 2
So it's a very broad thing. Basically the things we do when emotions arise. What do you do just after if you do something? Because I think allowing is is. So it's kind of the opposite way around. The less you do, the better that little the spirit of the emotion behaves. I wouldn't even call it better. It's definitely friendlier.

00:17:07:21 - 00:17:33:16
Speaker 2
So when I say regulate, I think the way to back to the hunger. You regulate hunger by eating. So if that that's the way to use regulate. I kind of like it. So and you regulate your what we would call primary emotions are those that come from your goals, needs and values by doing decoding them and then doing whatever they call for.

00:17:33:18 - 00:17:56:02
Speaker 2
So it's not like an immediate, okay, I have this pain arises. I have to regulate it. I exactly get what you mean. That's not what we're going for here. So in the grand scheme of things, you don't necessarily do it on the spot, if that makes sense, to regulate it. So these things listening, understanding doing what following the message that's regulating to in my the way I would use the word.

00:17:56:04 - 00:18:25:19
Speaker 2
And when it comes to like emotion regulation and the more how does the local sense like the here now what do you do when it pops up? Whether it's helpful or not? I think emotion regulation is exactly, I should say it more about what you don't do to the emotion. So the emotion regulation that I'm trying to help people to do in my everyday practice, try to help people see it's more about what not to do, because again, the principle is to do something.

00:18:25:21 - 00:18:58:09
Speaker 2
Our motivation to experience avoidance, essentially to rid ourselves of pain. So pain arises and we all have an instinct to do all the things that don't work, suppress, distract, argue, think positively, think critically, think realistically, remove ourselves from the situation, numb all those things that are so human and ineffective and that so. And then clients ask, well, then what do I do when I get triggered?

00:18:58:11 - 00:19:20:05
Speaker 2
And it's like the less the better, the more you can continue whatever you were doing before and just and then enters the allowing the emotion, leaving it alone, which I don't find negative. A lot of people hear it as a negative to leave something alone. It kind of tends to.

00:19:20:07 - 00:19:28:01
Speaker 2
Pivot towards distraction or suppression. Right. But it's not leaving it alone. Maybe we should shouldn't call it alone, but just leave it be.

00:19:28:03 - 00:19:29:00
Speaker 1
Happy.

00:19:29:02 - 00:19:52:15
Speaker 2
With it without resisting, and maybe also without trying to excessively understand it in the moment. That can be problematic too. If you think you need to understand every single thought and emotion and impulse that pops up. Because it could sound like that. Because our conversation so far is about them being meaningful and having signals. I hope you agree with this.

00:19:52:15 - 00:20:20:01
Speaker 2
Like that. That's another problem. Excessively suppressing reading ourselves and being afraid or excessively understanding them in the moment are two parts of the same problem. And then is what enters like embracing? Then what do we do? Embrace it. Accept it. Which to me is acceptance is just the opposite of resisting and fighting. What is that good luck with?

00:20:20:04 - 00:20:47:07
Speaker 2
With that. So I find them in the same. I think what you're talking about is just it's just, you know, the next level of being with and leaving it alone the positive way. Then there's another level where you could love it and embrace it and thank it. Without necessarily understanding it in the moment, what it means, would you agree that part of it.

00:20:47:09 - 00:21:18:05
Speaker 1
I would agree, you bring up some really interesting points because one of the things is the therapy industry that exists currently, and to the extent in which the American public is turning to the therapy industry, most often I'm going to say 99%, you're going to be 99% likelihood. You're going to approach a therapist who, by all means was just trained under the current system of propaganda.

00:21:18:07 - 00:21:54:05
Speaker 1
And that can be from Freudian roots or one of the more than 100, the various therapy schools that exist. And you believe that, these emotions can be resolved. Some of them will be outside of your conscious awareness. They will create reasons that they exist. And you can talk incessantly about what is painful in, in, in your life with the assumption that doing that like allows that emotion to move and then transform.

00:21:54:07 - 00:22:17:04
Speaker 1
And what I want to share with people is that could actually worsen, your ability to regulate emotions because a number of things are happening. One, you're giving a lot of attention and energy to things that elicited pain. So what we bring attention to, what we focus on strengthens it. You're also creating new narratives and stories is still very mind focused.

00:22:17:09 - 00:22:41:21
Speaker 1
Therapy is thinking a lot about your experience. So you create new narratives within the professional relationship. The third thing is, I do believe you surrender your autonomy and you create an, what could become an unnecessary, attachment on a professional in order for a way of coping with, the challenges of living. Our.

00:22:41:21 - 00:23:14:17
Speaker 2
Profession is parts of that at least guilty of the same exact same problem as psychiatry. It's not just psychiatry versus psychology, at least how it is now. If you outsource your understanding and regulation of emotion or management to another person, same problem. And that therapist is not, in my mind, doing a good job if they don't. I don't know whether to call it to teach emotion regulation to help the person discover that they could do it.

00:23:14:19 - 00:23:16:05
Speaker 2
I like that more.

00:23:16:07 - 00:24:06:22
Speaker 1
I do like that. And, I'm not 100% against the professional help industry, on its core, because I think if you had highly trained experts, in this field, in this way of understanding human, the human capacity to, to deal with pain and transcend it into something greater. And they provided these tools and some short term support, for that person then to go into their lives and be able to practice and utilize these principles like shaping and changing hearts and minds, then I think it's very valuable in the same way other cultures and tribes have had various elders or people within the tribe to be able to teach these valuable lessons.

00:24:06:24 - 00:24:37:11
Speaker 1
But when the therapy industry, the mental health industrial complex, becomes an arm of this greater psychological operation, you end up doing exactly the opposite. And every statistic will demonstrate to you that it has been wildly successful. You have more people who are struggling with quote unquote, mental illness are impaired by their internal experience. A fear has been conditioned into, and people are afraid of their thoughts and emotions, like literally afraid of their thoughts and emotions.

00:24:37:13 - 00:25:20:16
Speaker 1
And they have surrendered their autonomy to and an entire apparatus of medical professionals, primary care physicians, psychiatrists, social workers, counselors and psychologists. You've handed that over. They diagnose you, they label you, and you rely on them to make you better. Just think about the extent of such an operation to create such, a degree of, dependance and seeking out solutions outside of you which primes you for drug use, mood and mind altering drugs that are absolutely going to influence your ability to think critically either.

00:25:20:20 - 00:25:43:11
Speaker 1
And they're what they're using is the of fear combined with the authority bias to be able to achieve that realm the best. If therapists, if we're going to use that word in the future, are going to be the ones who awaken people to their own power, their own ability to be able to transcend through this experience in their life for something greater.

00:25:43:11 - 00:25:52:01
Speaker 1
On the other end, I've always said that if you prevent people from their darkness and you create a fear around that, you're going to prevent them from experiencing their light. That's the worst.

00:25:52:05 - 00:26:16:16
Speaker 2
Or it breaks every psychological principle for true healing to do that. And the same time, they depending on who they are, they must be, they must know their psychology pretty well. Those cajoling this because it's really just one massive, they exploit.

00:26:16:18 - 00:26:51:15
Speaker 2
The human need to I wouldn't call it a need, but the longing for a simple explanation when we suffer, right. The quick fix that's also part of our human ineffective nature that we seek simple explanations, and psychiatry's explanations are simple, so they're appealing to a person suffering. We want. It's it's so deep. It's difficult just even to have a bad day without also having this track going.

00:26:51:15 - 00:27:28:24
Speaker 2
That what is it? What can I do about it? It's part of it. Now, here's a, here's a machine that exploits that and gives people a false but but in the moment of distress, extremely appealing explanation and a theoretical solution to it. I think it's exploiting it that obviously what we would do if you and I had a client who was talking about directly or indirectly quick fixes, is to get that mechanism out into the light right?

00:27:29:01 - 00:27:47:04
Speaker 2
And b go meta on that, come aware of, okay, you're caught in such great pain that you your natural instinct is to seek out explanations and outsourcing the solution, and then have a conversation about that instead of following it.

00:27:47:06 - 00:28:16:03
Speaker 1
Yeah, fortunately, and I see this even with my clients, many of them who've been in the mental health industry previously are obviously just exposed to this culture. As you leave my office and there you are, it's you and your mind and the environment that you're in. And there's such a condition and cultivated fear. You know, they just want to retreat away from it, run away from it, and some of them will seek solace in my presence, right?

00:28:16:03 - 00:28:41:18
Speaker 1
As if I have the ability to be able to get them out of that state as one client said to me last week, I was considering writing a Substack article on this. She said to me, it's as if I come in here and I'm on fire and you have the fire extinguisher. And we had a difficult session.

00:28:41:22 - 00:29:06:01
Speaker 1
And she says, and you didn't use the fire extinguisher, right? Like that was the best style of communication to like, I want to use this time with you, to rely on you to make me feel better, which is, and set a call to what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to awaken the power within.

00:29:06:03 - 00:29:11:05
Speaker 2
Yeah. You're not following that thing. I'm not going down that route.

00:29:11:07 - 00:29:38:23
Speaker 1
Yeah, which is our job. Yeah, and I feel like there's just too many mental health professionals who believe that's exactly their job. Right. So here, use this technique, do this, think differently. Take this drug, avoid this situation. Right. They're constantly pushing various ways to suppress, avoid, judge. They have no idea that they're conditioning fear of the internal experience.

00:29:39:01 - 00:29:54:14
Speaker 1
Like oh my God you have suicidal thoughts. Oh my God, you have an intrusive thought. We have to do something to not think that way anymore to get rid of that thought. And they are clueless that they are going to then create more of those same thoughts by doing it exactly that way.

00:29:54:16 - 00:29:56:05
Speaker 2
And we are.

00:29:56:07 - 00:29:57:08
Speaker 1
Exactly.

00:29:57:10 - 00:30:08:24
Speaker 2
And I'm using techniques I would identify as someone using techniques two or methods in my practice, but they're different because they all involve.

00:30:09:01 - 00:30:10:05
Speaker 1

00:30:10:07 - 00:30:40:21
Speaker 2
Triggering something unpleasant. Trauma, an emotion that they feel they can't handle, a very difficult thought. That's called the difficult. So they can certainly be difficult, but not use intrusive or negative, just difficult. And then, show them not teach but show implying again, I like language implying that they can be with it in a way that's not overwhelming.

00:30:40:21 - 00:30:59:11
Speaker 2
So we're showing them through various we're not telling them it's too dark. And it was showing them and their eyes closed exercises and then doing that enough time will give them an experience of fearing it less. So you could call that a technique, but it's more like a learning and a learning. It's a it's a learning experience. Exactly.

00:30:59:11 - 00:31:01:06
Speaker 2
Yeah. That's how we should use the word.

00:31:01:08 - 00:31:22:13
Speaker 1
Which reminded me. And this is why I love your Substack things. Because it's there. It's therapeutic. It's part of what I believe that we use. Obviously you're skilled and you're talented, but you've dedicated your life to this, right? So does that mean we don't rely on your expert expertise because you're part of a professional helping industry? No.

00:31:22:13 - 00:31:47:20
Speaker 1
I think people who've who dedicated their lives to learning these things for the good of humanity, you know, we need to, we need to in some ways promote that. This is this is what you do. And we we make a choice, right? Is what you are saying. Does that help me? Do I see the value in what you're sharing?

00:31:47:22 - 00:32:16:03
Speaker 1
And sometimes there's a simplicity to it. And the best teachers are able to communicate complex phenomenon in ways that people can understand. So you're you're your last one of your last Substack article yesterday was the last one was around the, the metaphor of the of the dog and barking. I'm going to let you just tell this, tell this story and then how this can be useful for people.

00:32:16:03 - 00:32:48:00
Speaker 2
I'll try. So one of the most powerful yet most difficult concepts to explain for me is self-regulation. And when I use the word self-regulation, I refer to what thoughts and emotions and impulses do, what's in their nature. They regulate them selves. They don't need an outside force to bring them down. In fact, it's their nature to rise and peak and then taper off, which you could talk more about.

00:32:48:00 - 00:33:11:13
Speaker 2
And I'm constantly trying to figure out metaphors to explain that, because still to this day, language is limited in describing that. And I should say that both professionally and personally, the fact that emotions self-regulate and difficult thoughts self-regulate is the most. It's the game changer for me also personally, in terms of being with it. So yeah, that was the backstop.

00:33:11:13 - 00:33:45:17
Speaker 2
I'm trying to figure out ways to describe this. Also not using words of self-regulation because it might be too abstract. And so I kind of tasked my mind to come up with metaphors. And it listened. So the other day, just before I got here to, to the US, when every time I enter my office back in Copenhagen, which I do every day, my neighbor, a dog, barks as a dog at barks every time, as an every single time we open the front door and then it stops barking.

00:33:45:17 - 00:34:02:21
Speaker 2
Once I'm inside my door, which is to the left and the dog to the right. And first I was like, it's kind of annoying. The barking dark. And then I was like, okay, it must be kind of annoying for the owner to with 5 or 7 clients entering every day. And then I my mind started going, so what about the dogs perspective of this, which I like?

00:34:02:23 - 00:34:50:14
Speaker 2
What's the dog doing? What's driving the repetitive barking behavior? And I started putting myself into that shoe. It's okay from the dog's perspective. It's only reinforced in the fact that the barking works. That's its own experience. So intruder appears, I bark, intruder leaves. So the dog never experiences. What would happen if it didn't bark? See, it's only reinforced and strengthened in the belief that the only way to get this intruder, which I'm fairly sure the dog thinks we are, because it just hears a loud sound of door smacking people walking the dogs only experience is that it has to bark.

00:34:50:16 - 00:35:17:06
Speaker 2
But me knowing as a human that all of those clients, including myself, would have walked out of that hallway without the barking. That would be the natural turn of events, right? I then use that as a metaphor for self-regulation, like the intruder enters the hallway and goes into and his office would regulate itself. It doesn't need any barking, but the dog.

00:35:17:08 - 00:35:46:00
Speaker 2
How on earth can you tell that to the dog? You see? So and then I use that as a metaphor for what we humans do. We don't bark, we suppress and distract and think positively and think realistically, which some people might, that appears is a good thing. Okay, I could counter my negative thoughts with a positive or realistic a compassionate one.

00:35:46:02 - 00:36:10:03
Speaker 2
That sounds good. Well, it's definitely better than suppressing, but you know, it takes a lot of energy if you have to regulate your thoughts every time by doing something to them. Even though the realistic, positive, compassionate thoughts are true, it's not necessarily a good way to regulate it in the moment, because it can take a lot of time, and a lot of people just end up ruminating, worrying, or relying on a lot of cognitive force to regulate it.

00:36:10:04 - 00:36:38:05
Speaker 2
And that's where self-regulation comes in. The idea that doing nothing would also get you at the same place. So we don't bark. We do other things suppress, distract, avoid. Even now, I was trying to come up with a metaphor that, okay, how do we tell people? How do we help people understand that their barking is part of the problem and that they're thoughts, emotions, intrusions, impulses would follow the same pattern.

00:36:38:05 - 00:37:13:06
Speaker 2
They would get triggered for whatever reason, and then they would regulate themselves. So really what I'm trying to do is help people understand the true nature of emotion, which I think is a point in itself. Talking about techniques like how much do we as clinicians or helpers, how much is our job to to force techniques and other ways of doing stop stuff on a person as opposed to talking about emotions, thoughts, trauma, reactions, impulses in a way that naturally leads you to regulate it adaptively.

00:37:13:06 - 00:37:27:01
Speaker 2
I hope that difference makes sense. So the difference really comes down to and then I'll stop. So the difference comes down to what do you believe is the natural course of an emotion. So here's an emotion.

00:37:27:03 - 00:37:54:23
Speaker 2
It will stay with me, escalate, overwhelm even if I don't do something to it. So my job is to make it not escalate and overwhelm me. That's the first thing. The other thing is the other belief would be, okay, here's an emotion. It's natural course is actually to peak and fade if I don't do something. So my job is more not to maintain it, not to feed it, not to strengthen it more so than it is to actively push it away.

00:37:54:23 - 00:38:00:16
Speaker 2
And that's what I'm trying to describe for people.

00:38:00:18 - 00:38:07:22
Speaker 1
Brilliance is a long explanation. Brilliant. I want to share with you where my mind was going as I was listening to you.

00:38:07:22 - 00:38:09:08
Speaker 2
Other places.

00:38:09:10 - 00:38:14:20
Speaker 1
Because I do want to reveal.

00:38:14:22 - 00:38:21:03
Speaker 1
The mind control and brainwashing from industries, from forces outside of us.

00:38:21:05 - 00:38:23:11
Speaker 2
That's where your mind went to when I talked about. Cool.

00:38:23:13 - 00:38:59:02
Speaker 1
Yeah, because you know where I'm at right now. The things that I'm focusing on. Because first I notice an energy inside of me that wants to, like, fight. Because, to be honest, the drug trials and how we got these drugs to market and how it's communicated to physicians and how we use the publication industry, the scientific journals, to push things in this oversimplified way, to get people to say, hey, they work.

00:38:59:04 - 00:39:12:15
Speaker 1
It's so infuriating because it's so simple and it's so dark in that simplicity to talk about things in terms of, oh, well, no, these drugs work because, as you said, the dog is barking. He thinks it works. The dog only.

00:39:12:15 - 00:39:14:10
Speaker 2
Reinforced. Of course, that's his reality.

00:39:14:10 - 00:39:34:18
Speaker 1
Yeah, yeah. Because yeah, they go away. But, you know, same thing when you drink, when you drink alcohol, right? Your social anxiety goes away. You know, if you were struggling in social situations, it acts as, that, that mechanism to, you know, reduce the amount of fear as, as it impacts certain parts of the body and brain.

00:39:34:20 - 00:39:55:17
Speaker 1
And so you already have a population of people who've been conditioned to believe their internal experiences are dangerous. Yes. That's why they're going to the doctors in the first place. Yes. They'll label it as a condition which now validates and reinforces that idea that it is dangerous. You enter into a drug trial, you use a psychoactive substance, substance that acts on the brain, in the body in a way that reduces and numbs it.

00:39:55:17 - 00:40:22:12
Speaker 1
Just as you said, numbs and narrows. And so now you automatically and pretty quickly, combined with the placebo response, reduce narrow numb the experience and you're like, look, it worked. And because you were told that those internal experiences were dangerous, now you say things like, hey, they were lifesaving because they were dangerous and you just create an outcome measure, right?

00:40:22:18 - 00:40:46:11
Speaker 1
That measures the numbing and narrowing of the experience. And you say, look at this book. You've overcome the pain that is involved with that. And so it reinforces and strengthens the entire idea that what within you is dangerous. Yes. Now we know this is going to be temporary. The pain will return even when you're taking a numbing agent.

00:40:46:11 - 00:41:08:12
Speaker 1
So the body, as you discussed in our last episode, just designed for adaptation, seeks out homeostasis. So you just need more and more of the drug or another drug. So it's a gateway into becoming a customer for life, because you have to become dependent on more and more drugs. And when I when I get angry and I and I'm and I'm learning that that's a side of me that I have to transcend and overcome.

00:41:08:12 - 00:41:30:05
Speaker 1
Because when I speak from a place of anger, I turn off a lot of people. I have to talk from a place of love and create that internally, because really it's about protection for the harmed. But I get angry at the oppressor or the abuser. See, in our society, the doctor should know better. Yes, you can't be that simple minded after going through medical school, right?

00:41:30:05 - 00:41:59:10
Speaker 1
There has to be something about your capacity for critical thinking and analytical thinking that would inform you that, hey, this reducing and numbing isn't what's best for the human experience, but somehow they found themselves really, in a trance like state, being able to be influenced by major forces and industries to see it as a symptom that on a check list you can kind of measure and then say, hey, look at this drug works just so simple, so, so dumb.

00:41:59:14 - 00:42:36:20
Speaker 2
So, so dumb, dumb and simple. But people in distress. Okay, so I get your association. So and I go into this in the book to like again terminology. What does work mean. If you mean remove the some pain or unpleasant element or at least reduce it, that's your simplified way of something working. But so the drug, when it works to down regulate some pain for a moment.

00:42:36:22 - 00:43:10:15
Speaker 2
Inadvertently reinforces the underlying beliefs that that pain needs numbing or reducing. So the so drugs a bark really like it's the exact same mechanism. And that's why exactly as I said this not in the absence of understanding pain and drugs. This way your experience becomes that it's lifesaving and it really helps you. But all it does is it works on one level, on the symptom level, but at a deeper level, the one we're trying to target as therapists.

00:43:10:17 - 00:43:31:13
Speaker 2
So while it numbs the pain, it also confirms your belief that, okay, I need something external to regulate this. So the message then becomes, okay, there's this overwhelming. It is overwhelming me. And it would escalate if I didn't stop it with a drug. And also it does not make sense. So the further I get away from this pain, the better and I tried.

00:43:31:13 - 00:43:53:08
Speaker 2
There's even a model in the book where I try to describe this that we have to talk about things working at different levels. Alcohol works. Avoidance works like just avoiding your triggers should. Trauma is just stuff the things that cause pain. It works. It just causes other problems because other parts of you that want to go out in the world and do stuff and follow your goals and your values, they all start complaining.

00:43:53:10 - 00:44:20:07
Speaker 1
Yeah, it works temporarily. It works temporarily. Avoidance always does work, always works temporarily. And then obviously it's strengthened by negative reinforcement. So it's a temporary reduction in that pain that reinforces you to continue doing that same strategy. But then in the downstream consequences of this, with someone with PTSD, for example, who wants to avoid the memory of the trauma or avoid any external reminders of the trauma, this is why we see nightmares.

00:44:20:10 - 00:44:29:13
Speaker 1
Yes, because the body, the brain, the mind, it's going to process that event because it's necessary. It has to.

00:44:29:13 - 00:44:31:07
Speaker 2
Move. Yes. Right.

00:44:31:09 - 00:44:38:22
Speaker 1
And then we see the nightmares as a symptom of the condition to. Yeah. When it's really not.

00:44:38:24 - 00:45:13:09
Speaker 2
Psychiatrist covered it. All right. But the feelings the emotions the pain is a symptom. And the stuff people do to to manage that is also a symptom. And that's where we got all the behaviors. Now it's almost full package going through the different diagnosis. Like what are they made up of emotions and ways of coping with emotions, emotion regulation, strategies, whether that is avoiding overthinking, overeating, cutting, dissociation, even incredibly strong protective mechanism.

00:45:13:11 - 00:45:32:09
Speaker 2
Good that we have that people rely on it to make it through tough times. Problem is, whatever made you help you cope with the tough times tends to stick with us and become our overall strategies. And that's when the problems it's really full circle on emotion regulation. That's what we're trying to help people with. Yeah, without judging it, I think it was really important.

00:45:32:09 - 00:45:52:21
Speaker 2
And I go through that in the book too, because the technical word in the psychology literature is maladaptive emotion regulation. And I get that in the sense like it doesn't work, or at least you have to do it all the time because of that paradoxical effect. The more you suppress and avoid, the stronger it gets. But still, I really want to have a language that honors that.

00:45:52:21 - 00:46:08:14
Speaker 2
That was that. There's a wisdom in it. Whatever destructive, hence problematic pattern a person arrived and we must trust that it came out of. That was the best thing they could do at the time of distress. It's wisdom in it.

00:46:08:15 - 00:46:46:08
Speaker 1
Yeah. It's very important for me to communicate to people that everything starts with fear, provocation, because we are so averse to fear. It is an instinctual reaction for survival that those who are in authority or who want to influence people on the individual or group level, it's always going to start with fear, provocation. It's why the news media is going to lead their programing with something that is going to provoke the most degree of fear within the person, right?

00:46:46:08 - 00:47:37:23
Speaker 1
It's if it bleeds, it leads, right. And that's just a tried and true mechanism. Yes. It's why during Covid they would exaggerate the potential problems and consequences of the disease. It's greatest fear provocation. It's why on CNN you would have the rising death counts. And that was for you to provoke fear. And then the solution which was there, mRNA gene therapy to alter your brain to create the exact consequences that we're seeing right now, which is to decrease, the population on Earth, fertility, these rapid cancers, unfortunately, autoimmune conditions, because you're altering what is natural to the human body in the way that it's evolved and adapted over the course of human life.

00:47:37:23 - 00:47:38:04
Speaker 1
Right.

00:47:38:08 - 00:47:39:19
Speaker 2
That's supposed to mess with that, right?

00:47:39:19 - 00:47:53:16
Speaker 1
You do not mess with that state. Your nature will definitely fuck with you. And that's why we're experiencing the chronic disease epidemic that has. But I just want to emphasize that it starts with fear, provocation. And that's when you're going to surrender. Your autonomy.

00:47:53:18 - 00:47:54:05
Speaker 2
Works every.

00:47:54:05 - 00:48:23:11
Speaker 1
Time. Yeah. And that's what they've done. So here's a a lesson. It's obvious. Clear. Always know it. Any person, any industry, any entity that wants to provoke fear, they're trying to control you. It is a mind control strategy. And they're going to use it to create susceptibility, to influence you to an outcome that they desire. So do not trust.

00:48:23:13 - 00:48:46:01
Speaker 1
Any fear provocation techniques. It's also going to create a consciousness. Hey what do I mean by consciousness? It's our awareness. Consciousness influences matter. So what we create internally will get manifested into the physical world. So fear provocation will manifest itself into going to see a doctor when around a lot of things medically.

00:48:46:06 - 00:48:50:16
Speaker 2
I have a question about the doctor, can I interfere? Go ahead. Do you remember your stream of thought? No.

00:48:50:16 - 00:48:51:04
Speaker 1
Well, do you.

00:48:51:04 - 00:49:22:15
Speaker 2
Think the individual doctor, a psychiatrist, when they try to insert fear into, say, someone experiencing their first psychotic episode or manic episode and then the message to them is, okay, turns out you have this disease, and this was this was what triggered it. That's, you know, trying to frame it in a negative way. Fear. Do you think they are consciously trying to control that person, like the mechanism we talk about here, or is it like on a higher level?

00:49:22:17 - 00:49:24:04
Speaker 2
They're not the individual.

00:49:24:06 - 00:49:25:19
Speaker 1
They're victims of mind control themselves.

00:49:25:22 - 00:49:46:03
Speaker 2
Good. So so they are. Which actually makes it worse. Right? They're probably genuinely convinced about these disease entities existing schizophrenia, bipolar, borderline whatever. And they're helping this person by helping them understand you've got this in you and it's negative.

00:49:46:03 - 00:49:57:00
Speaker 1
Yeah. So they were fear conditioned. Yes. And they were told that it is their job to treat this disease and to save that this person from adverse consequences of not receiving the treatment.

00:49:57:02 - 00:50:04:02
Speaker 2
Yes. So the element of control is not in the immediate, at least for most doctors, immediate contact with your doctor. It's on a higher level.

00:50:04:07 - 00:50:31:24
Speaker 1
Yeah. Yeah I unfortunately I have contempt for those who can be brainwashed to that extent. Right. Because critical again critical thinking analytic thinking was suppressed. Yeah. And it was suppressed systematically. And starting from elementary school through their entire programing. Programing is the right word. So they're acting within the programing. And some of the fear provocation exists, like, all right, you had this psychotic episode, you experienced mania.

00:50:32:01 - 00:50:37:12
Speaker 1
That means you have this disease. It's going to be lifelong unless you take this drug.

00:50:37:14 - 00:51:01:17
Speaker 2
And this is where I get angry. You know, it takes a lot for me to show, especially here. But that's just the worst stories when doing the clinical work. And that's I think that's why this is this is not just some abstract theoretical disagreement or problem. Oh, sorry, in the world and has actual consequences for people who happened to obviously, something happened in their lives.

00:51:01:17 - 00:51:29:09
Speaker 2
I know that that's pretty common sense here, but to mainstream psychiatry, it isn't. Something happened that made them, let's say, psychotic, manic, deeply depressed. It was the context around it. And then instead of, you know, helping that person through it, I like to think as that of my job, if I had to describe it clinically, I help people through their episodes of whatever, ideally in a way that makes it not come again or when it comes again, they'll understand the message sooner for it not to completely overthrow them.

00:51:29:11 - 00:51:57:23
Speaker 2
And now we have they're doing the opposite. The messages. Okay, not looking at context trauma triggers, not trying to understand and understand it using normal words. Tough things happening that just get completely you know, out of the picture. And then all the diagnostic language and what I'm trying to say, because this has real consequences for people. Most people wouldn't have another episode if they were through it, but interest the fear and the stuff.

00:51:58:00 - 00:52:15:15
Speaker 2
And I also always when I talk to my clients, some of them have been in the system for five, ten, 20 years. I always trace it back, okay, when did this start? And then 11 times out of ten, there was some situation around it that they could have been helped through. But because of this, the diagnostic language entered, it completely shifted away.

00:52:15:20 - 00:52:22:11
Speaker 2
Okay, now you have this disease even when they do it. That was the anger to kids and young people.

00:52:22:13 - 00:52:23:10
Speaker 1
Yeah.

00:52:23:12 - 00:52:27:19
Speaker 2
Sorry for rounding on, but it's just really connected to the real.

00:52:27:21 - 00:52:47:17
Speaker 1
Well, it's it's to me. Let's understand what a delusion is, right? That which is under the umbrella of psychotic. The irony of all this is the doctor who is providing the diagnosis has no idea they're under a mass delusion.

00:52:47:19 - 00:52:50:10
Speaker 2
That's toxic. That's, that's why it's dangerous.

00:52:50:12 - 00:53:26:05
Speaker 1
Yeah. I mean that is the definition of a delusion. True. Right. When, when you have a thought system, a belief that is not connected with truth, with reality. And then you act upon that thought system in ways that create or have the potential to create harm. Right. That's ultimately what we're trying to prevent. So what has always been fascinating to me is someone can come in to, a psychiatrist and say, I have found God.

00:53:26:07 - 00:54:06:15
Speaker 1
And careful with that. I've found God. And, I feel like this burst of, like, positive emotion, like empathy and creativity and love. Right. They'll label that as mania, because they'll meet it on the checklist and they'll suppress that with drugs. But the doctor who believes that that experience is a disease of origin in the brain and requires a chemical made in a factory to suppress that experience, is treatment that somehow is not a delusion.

00:54:06:17 - 00:54:31:17
Speaker 1
No. Although it's not aligned with any positive outcome or any evidence, just their power. The the white coat. Yeah. What's been bestowed upon them in our society purposely for authority, a certain type of person. Right. Like, remember, I start this off by really asking about the person who is susceptible to going to drugs. Well, who is the person that's susceptible to drugging?

00:54:31:19 - 00:54:35:21
Speaker 1

00:54:35:23 - 00:54:37:17
Speaker 1
That's a good point.

00:54:37:19 - 00:55:02:14
Speaker 2
I was just trying to figure out what it aligns with. It doesn't align with the evidence logic or the past 99.9% of human recorded history. It it just aligns with the part of history where in the Western authority expert mental health kind of thing, it aligns with that. Right? What they're doing is the only thing it aligns with.

00:55:02:16 - 00:55:05:17
Speaker 2
The idea.

00:55:05:19 - 00:55:16:20
Speaker 2
I hope, will live long enough to look, to be able to look back at okay. Oh yeah, that that was the the decades when, when they when it was expedited in that way. Well that's not a word.

00:55:16:20 - 00:55:25:09
Speaker 1
That's what this is why we stand out. Yeah. You and I are for whatever reason, although trained under that same model.

00:55:25:10 - 00:55:27:13
Speaker 2
Yes, exactly same model.

00:55:27:15 - 00:55:53:12
Speaker 1
We didn't fall for the brainwashing. And so I think deeply about things like this. What protected me from the brainwashing were so many of our colleagues. You know, just surrendered to it and act within it. That's what was fascinating. I think, about Inner Compass Initiative conference is that it's the first time that we all really got together in a room.

00:55:53:12 - 00:55:56:18
Speaker 1
Yes, because there's not many of us ponders.

00:55:56:20 - 00:55:58:23
Speaker 2
Like, what's the energy thinking to describe?

00:55:59:02 - 00:56:21:13
Speaker 1
Think about this internationally. How many psychologists are really actively, forcefully speaking out against this mass delusion? How many psychiatrists are actually doing that? Right? I mean, we're a handful and we were all in the same room.

00:56:21:15 - 00:56:47:07
Speaker 2
So question is if the other is the brainwashed ones, which probably, if they listen to this won't resonate with that word because that's the that's what defines it. Right? If there is some part or voice in them that is critical, skeptical, like what we are, do you think that or is it just it can't just not be there at all?

00:56:47:09 - 00:57:00:18
Speaker 2
I think it's there. Just learn how to suppress it and not listen to it and discard it as as noise. But if it's there, we have to figure out clever ways to talk to that part of the person in a way that makes the person listen.

00:57:00:22 - 00:57:26:24
Speaker 1
Oh, I have I've observed what they've done. Yes, they are the person that denies and suppresses it and just moves on. Right. And follows the model. But remember we talked about it was so it's so obviously limiting. It's so obviously false. But this is the power of the human mind rationalization. The human mind can rationalize the most. Tragic.

00:57:26:24 - 00:57:54:17
Speaker 1
Yeah. And harmful. I mean, we kill each other. This is the human human nature finds a way to kill each other through war, through the illusion of separation. The greatest atrocities that exist, crimes against humanity can be rationalized by an entire group of people. And that should all be a word of caution for us. So this is what I hear.

00:57:54:19 - 00:58:19:23
Speaker 1
And this is when people I think where I stand out, I've been called, you know, too controversial, radical, bellicose, whatever those words are. Because I clearly, indirectly state how unethical, how harmful. I don't think any SSRI should ever be used. Ever. But this is where you see the rationalization. Like, these people are still acting in the system.

00:58:20:00 - 00:58:31:23
Speaker 1
Say, you know, there's nuance and you have to be open to the ideas. There's some people that really help. They they use all this language to kind of still continue to elevate them as a healer.

00:58:31:23 - 00:58:37:24
Speaker 2
And it sounds like the positive ones. It sounds like the, the, the compassionate thing with nuance and balance and.

00:58:38:01 - 00:59:03:04
Speaker 1
Yeah. And then you and then what are you doing? Are you using ECT. Yeah. You know, and you're zapping someone's brain with, I mean, completely unethical and obviously like no outcomes that we would ever desire to, to create that type of damage to the human brain. But yet, you know, they'll justify that type of treatment as there's somebody out there that's relieving their suffering and improving their quality of life.

00:59:03:04 - 00:59:28:08
Speaker 1
It's the same argument with SSRI eyes, although I've never met that person, I've never seen it in my entire career. I can't find it in the research literature. They're able to use that type of rationalization to support continued support of that intervention. And here's the problem with this, Anders, is when you start entering into that type of thinking, is that everybody thinks they're that person, anyone who's in suffering and pain.

00:59:28:08 - 00:59:39:12
Speaker 1
So you take the the vulnerable person wants to relieve that they're suffering pain. They all think they're the ones that are going to benefit from the intervention. And that's why you see so many more people taking psychiatric drugs and entering into experimental treatments.

00:59:39:14 - 01:00:04:00
Speaker 2
And I should maybe, maybe listeners of your channel know this already, but the ways we're talking about, you know, the alternative to what we're criticizing here is also relieving. Sounds more relieving, I would say. So just not to make this sound like, okay, we're not gonna help people in distress. We are helping people in distress. That's what we're here for.

01:00:04:06 - 01:00:37:18
Speaker 2
But in different ways than the acute, local numbing, simple explanations. Just really to get everyone on board on that. The self-regulation thing, the embracing, the accepting, the not fearing the being with the, understanding it as messages without necessarily understanding the message, in real time. That kind of state is not only also helpful, it's it's like genuinely sustainably helpful.

01:00:37:20 - 01:00:44:21
Speaker 2
I just I just feel like saying that so that it doesn't sound like we don't help people suffering.

01:00:44:23 - 01:00:55:17
Speaker 1
No. It, let me explain why I think what you said it was really important because the counterargument back, is that we deny human suffering.

01:00:55:17 - 01:01:01:14
Speaker 2
Yes, yes, that's all the way you got. Oh, if you don't call it an illness or on condition, then you don't, then you don't validate it.

01:01:01:17 - 01:01:06:22
Speaker 1
Yeah, which is bullshit. Yeah. We don't deny the existence of. It's very reliable. Meaning extremely.

01:01:06:22 - 01:01:07:08
Speaker 2
Real.

01:01:07:08 - 01:01:26:00
Speaker 1
Or psychosis. Yeah, right. I think I just did a pretty good job of, speaking to how the mind is vulnerable to delusions, but, what we're. I think what we're arguing against is the manner in which we categorize it. Yes. And then the manner in which we treat it creates an epidemic. It does. It's not healing.

01:01:26:00 - 01:01:51:15
Speaker 1
It's going to make it worse, fundamentally by its nature. And when we look cross-culturally and you're not American, but let me tell you a little bit about, American brainwashing, please. Right. This is true. This is from the moment we've entered into school, right? The United States is the beacon of freedom. We save the world from tyranny, you know, go back to World War two.

01:01:51:21 - 01:02:20:08
Speaker 1
You know, we rescued Europe, which, of course, there's truth. A lot of brave Americans were able to do that, that we live in an absolute free society. Right. And, We're the beacon of scientific technological. This is what, the promised land. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Oh, yeah. Yeah. American exceptionalism. So by nature, an American is conditioned to look down upon you.

01:02:20:08 - 01:02:45:17
Speaker 1
Honors. You're not American, right? Your ancestors wouldn't leave territory to immigrate to this land of the free and to create a country, that is self-governed. Now, you entered into democratic socialism, and, you give a lot of your money over to the Danish government. You surrender that, and you want to be controlled, right? Like govern me harder, please.

01:02:45:19 - 01:03:09:20
Speaker 1
You know, tell me what to think. Tell me what to do. And there's some truth to some personality differences. But what people fail to recognize is, is that the United States has evolved into one of the most propagandized countries in the history of the world, as evidenced by our decline in culture as as evidenced by our declining medical system, the health of our country.

01:03:09:22 - 01:03:36:20
Speaker 1
The public school systems are in shambles. Are are once like miracle beautiful cities, are really being destroyed from within and we have a leadership that has long since been captured by really intelligence forces and intelligence agencies that are involved in a number of psychological operations, not just our own people around the world for control, but, you know, the American people themselves.

01:03:36:22 - 01:04:13:00
Speaker 1
So when they're not open, they're not aware to it, they're not awakened to it. They believe that they are free. They don't know how these mind control strategies are used on them in American television, in the media, newspapers, mainstream media, powerful social media, messages, you know, we're constantly bombarded with information. Remember, it starts with fear, provocation, then it's allowing the messages to seep into the subconscious.

01:04:13:02 - 01:04:35:10
Speaker 1
And then what happens is that everybody sounds the same. They start repeating the same things over and over again. Right. And they don't realize those aren't their own thoughts. They don't realize that they have not guarded their minds. So they're no longer sovereign, but they think they're sovereign. That's a.

01:04:35:10 - 01:04:37:03
Speaker 2
Bad combination.

01:04:37:05 - 01:04:41:17
Speaker 1
It's the worst of combinations.

01:04:41:19 - 01:05:16:06
Speaker 1
I think part of my responsibility and using the mental health Psyop as a great prime example of how we've surrendered to it and how we're controlled, is to be able to discuss things to first, our listeners and I ask always, anyone who listens this podcast, send it to three people. You know, I was talking to Ralph today like, I have a growing platform, like, if you go to my Substack, it's routinely a bestseller on Substack.

01:05:16:08 - 01:05:44:19
Speaker 1
I have this growing social media platform and people who listen to this, on Spotify or Apple just just download this and listen to. That's a growing number of people, too. It's in the top half percent globally. Right. And then go to my YouTube, we start providing the videos of this and you get like 400 or 500 people listen.

01:05:44:19 - 01:05:57:16
Speaker 1
Yeah. Like that's impossible. It's actively suppressed. So everything in my channel suppressed, and some of them are even allowed to be viewed. Right. So it's,

01:05:57:18 - 01:06:01:20
Speaker 2
It's I tell you, this, YouTube tells you this gives you an a message saying, yeah, this has been yeah.

01:06:01:20 - 01:06:26:00
Speaker 1
I'm completely suppressed. I'm completely limited. Everything that I'm doing, which makes me really, really dangerous because because I'm over the target. It's a lot of things I'm saying. So I would just like to do an example. Anybody who listens to this today just go on and and you don't even have to watch the episode, just like let it play for a little bit and let's see if these views even get counted.

01:06:26:02 - 01:06:55:15
Speaker 1
Like that's an active suppression technique. Right? And I imagine I'll just eventually get off YouTube and go to freedom sites, but, it's like just important to know what is happening on a, on a mass scale. And there is this technocratic elite that, wants to control you control your mind. There's a battle for hearts and minds and souls right now, and the one way they're going to do it is going to be able to get you almost like a cattle walking itself to the slaughter.

01:06:55:17 - 01:07:22:14
Speaker 1
You are going to, I mean, get an experimental injection like that was Covid was that first test. How many people will walk directly into the slaughter? How come? How can we influence them and control their behavior? Do you know what it was in America? 80% of people did that to themselves. And there's going to be a percentage of people out there who still believe they did something for the greater good.

01:07:22:20 - 01:07:35:24
Speaker 1
They still believe they were provided a vaccine. That's something that stopped transmission of. Right. So how does this tie into the mental health industry? Well, that's that's how that's how it influence influence we are by these messaging.

01:07:36:00 - 01:08:04:15
Speaker 2
The mechanism makes sense because so many professions, institutions are built upon the whether they know it or not. The psychiatric idea of suffering in mental health. So you build up, you build a castle, a palace paradigm on top of something that then turns out to be however big that castle is. The foundation was wrong, the assumptions were wrong.

01:08:04:15 - 01:08:32:02
Speaker 2
And it doesn't matter how big the castle is, they can still be wrong. Then what do we do? Obviously it's going to be resistance, attacking, discrediting anyone, pointing out that flaw in the foundation, right? And that that to me would explain the degree of the mechanisms that you describe. It makes complete just an overall systems theory. It makes sense that that system which is wrong, inherently, foundationally wrong.

01:08:32:02 - 01:08:58:15
Speaker 2
But because Bick would react in those ways, because it can't consult the evidence, can't consult logic history, then what does it do? It has to really protect itself by attacking and discrediting and all the things that happens. You know, even locally, I would say to a lot of people working in the field, they will know. And I talked about that in my speech to the ACA conference to, you know, being discredited, attacked and stuff.

01:08:58:17 - 01:09:15:02
Speaker 2
When we say something that is inconvenient and it is inconvenient for a system, it's a weird noise, and the system and system tend to react by ridding themselves of noise. So I see the same. I'm just trying to make sense of what you just said. I think it's the same mechanism. It just lives on different levels, really.

01:09:15:04 - 01:09:22:06
Speaker 1
And the thing about fear is that, it impacts critical thinking and critical analysis.

01:09:22:08 - 01:09:33:19
Speaker 2
Right? Not supposed to, from a biological perspective to think and reflect when you're in danger. It's the it's those who did that are not here. Evolution made sure that they're not here.

01:09:33:21 - 01:09:34:12
Speaker 1

01:09:34:14 - 01:09:45:07
Speaker 2
So so it's it's a strong mechanism. You're not supposed to think and reflect and think positively and take your time. If there is actual danger ahead.

01:09:45:09 - 01:10:25:17
Speaker 1
Yeah. So it's interesting how that gets used to influence and control behavior. So last night I befriended, a filmmaker from Canada where at the ICC conference, and he sent me his teaser because he's looking for funding for his project. But it's it's around what the Canadian government did during Covid and the rise in infant mortality. Since then, and certain brave souls, one, one detective in particular who's trying to expose this because this was her job and there was a clip of Justin Trudeau giving a speech.

01:10:25:19 - 01:10:54:23
Speaker 1
And I'll slow it down so you can see how ridiculous it is. But at the time, it was highly effective. He was saying that you have a choice to not get vaccinated, but if you make that choice, there will be consequences. Do not think you'll be able to ride our public subway system. Do not think you can go out to public and infect those who went and got vaccinated for the greater good.

01:10:55:00 - 01:10:58:07
Speaker 1
Now stop and listen.

01:10:58:09 - 01:11:13:15
Speaker 1
It makes no sense. Logically, if someone was inoculated or vaccinated, the whole purpose of that is to be protected from the virus. Why would they be at risk of those who did not get vaccinated?

01:11:13:16 - 01:11:14:16
Speaker 2
Funny argument, funny.

01:11:14:16 - 01:11:39:01
Speaker 1
Logic and what it it makes no sense. But fear suppresses critical thought. And then you create your point. Yeah, you create the other. You know there's a group that's trying to harm me. I am sophisticated. See, I listen to the authorities that I've been conditioned to bias to believe I elevate myself and you animals who did not go and get the vaccination.

01:11:39:03 - 01:12:05:13
Speaker 1
You're putting all of humanity at risk, and then it just develops like an anger towards them. They don't even realize that they were just the cattle, the sheep, whatever term you want to use that walk themselves into the slaughter. And this isn't to demean or devalue people, it's to wake you up to what is being done to influence and control your behavior.

01:12:05:13 - 01:12:09:01
Speaker 1
And the same thing is happening in the mental health industry.

01:12:09:01 - 01:12:12:15
Speaker 2
So how do we break that? How do we do that?

01:12:12:17 - 01:12:41:12
Speaker 1
Yeah, I mean, does the education matters? Like I think these talks because there's not many of them happening, in a way that I think people can understand. I don't think we're using jargon or at work. I'm not an academic. I try to speak right to the people and get better at that. I'm telling you, your own sovereignty has been, it's been you've surrendered it and you didn't know you surrendered it.

01:12:41:14 - 01:13:07:15
Speaker 1
But you can you can wake up out of that. And there are, like, you see, and movements that grow when your consciousness shifts, when what you believe to be reality. At one point, there's so much dissonance created by overwhelming competing evidence that you quote unquote wake up. Right. And when you do that, it's a little unsettling at first.

01:13:07:19 - 01:13:08:24
Speaker 1
It's disorienting.

01:13:09:00 - 01:13:10:15
Speaker 2
Of course you don't. That's the noise.

01:13:10:15 - 01:13:27:17
Speaker 1
Yeah. You don't want to trust it. No. Because of so much of what you thought to be true previously is not true. You kind of want to go back. Do you want to retreat back to safety? Right? Like, I want things to be predictable because I know how to operate in the predictability.

01:13:27:19 - 01:13:48:06
Speaker 2
At least that's the part likely to be most active at first. The retreating protective security part. We got to help people feel bad. That's, you know, something that would break it. I'm just trying to figure out ways to introduce.

01:13:48:06 - 01:13:49:08
Speaker 1
You can't fear.

01:13:49:08 - 01:13:51:05
Speaker 2
Friction in people's.

01:13:51:07 - 01:14:20:01
Speaker 1
Yeah patterns systems. It's fear that takes them back to the predictability. So if you if you conditioned a fear of fear, right, you stay small. You stay stuck is easily controlled, easily manipulated. If I like the term keep going. Keep walking like you're going down this path. It's unknown. Like you're going into the forest. We know you have to get to the other end.

01:14:20:03 - 01:14:43:12
Speaker 1
And when you get to the other end, you see everything from a new perspective. And you're stronger, you're more enlightened. You've learned, your consciousness expanded, you're ready to create, a new society, a new way of living. But what fear does is it gets you to, like, halfway into the forest and it's fucking dark. It's cold. You have to survive on your own.

01:14:43:12 - 01:15:06:17
Speaker 1
You don't know what's there. You think you're in danger, and there's all this safety back there. The village is right back there. You can go right back to a warm fire, a roof over your head, get a night's sleep. There's food in the fridge. And now you're. Now you're now you're safe. But you are going to stay within that predictable pattern over and over and over again till you die.

01:15:06:17 - 01:15:21:13
Speaker 2
And there's pain in that, too, right? I think that's the everyday pain and distress you'd feel. It just I think we just get used to that. So that's why we.

01:15:21:15 - 01:15:46:11
Speaker 2
It's familiar distress and unease and pain. And that forest just appears because it's another type of distress that's worse. And then you tend to retreat back into your everyday patterns that may feel painful. Just got used to it. I think that's what makes people in the beginning, if we're not helped to understand the mechanism, retreat.

01:15:46:13 - 01:16:04:16
Speaker 1
There's there's faith and trust in this process. Like if I'm going to say, keep going, there's something better on the other side. It's almost like you, you have to trust that you'll jump off a cliff and crow crow wings. Right. And so most people don't want to do that so they don't transcend the illusion that is this reality.

01:16:04:18 - 01:16:13:22
Speaker 1
And they're never able to obtain what is their highest good potential. Once it's all it's in there, it's in there.

01:16:13:22 - 01:16:15:10
Speaker 2
It's just smaller maybe than that.

01:16:15:12 - 01:16:27:15
Speaker 1
Because that's what you're exactly. What you're talking about is that there's this pain and this emptiness going back to safety. You don't really, you know, you might numb it with alcohol and food.

01:16:27:15 - 01:16:28:07
Speaker 2
You'll find.

01:16:28:09 - 01:16:54:04
Speaker 1
A yes. Right. But it still comes back and it's going to be there because it's the signal that your soul is supposed to be on another path. You're supposed to keep going when you're in the middle of the forest. Don't turn back. Keep going. Because once you get over your fear, then you're dangerous. You're not controllable because revolutionary revolutions need to occur.

01:16:54:06 - 01:17:19:14
Speaker 1
And someone who's sedated, numbed, drugged, entertained, controlled does not start revolutions. They're controlled. And it's scary as shit for me that 80% of people who are susceptible to that and the government knows it, the government knows who got the who got it and who didn't. And don't believe for a second all this information that's being harvested, all the data, they know everything about you.

01:17:19:14 - 01:17:42:12
Speaker 1
You think that's for no reason that's used, right? So they know who you vote for. They know whether you've got a social media presence. They know what your algorithm is. They know what you say. They know whether you got the vaccine or whether you use the health care system. And how you are very predictable. Therefore, they can control you.

01:17:42:12 - 01:18:08:10
Speaker 1
They can influence you. So one of my things right now is be fucking unpredictable, right. And the way, the way to be unpredictable is don't follow the patterns. And I think there's a guidance system in there for you, that will help you that you're going to follow. What is your divine guidance? What is your soul's highest good?

01:18:08:12 - 01:18:12:15
Speaker 1
Not the mind through fear that wants to keep you small.

01:18:12:15 - 01:18:35:10
Speaker 2
So we're back to the tying it back to the start with the compass. And I guess people can use whatever word they want. And I'm still trying to figure out what to call it. The thing I tried to describe before, the thing that I. The thing in me that knows what's good for me and what isn't, and what I can't do, what I'm capable of or not.

01:18:35:10 - 01:18:42:10
Speaker 2
And it's trying to communicate to me and the better align with it, which is an element as an element of fear to it.

01:18:42:12 - 01:18:46:10
Speaker 1
You have to break patterns.

01:18:46:12 - 01:19:01:00
Speaker 2
So back to that, really to the emotions. That's the signal that tells us it also does other things. But one of the things it does, it's trying to tell us how aligned we are with those things. The signals.

01:19:01:02 - 01:19:29:07
Speaker 1
I believe so. I want to divert off the path just a little bit, but I think it'll bring us back. You were talking about this weekend, David Lynch? He is, I guess, the director, maybe producer, creator of Twin Peaks, amongst others. Yes. Right. And we just happened to be in a bookstore in Frenchtown, new Jersey.

01:19:29:07 - 01:19:30:10
Speaker 1
Small town.

01:19:30:14 - 01:19:31:12
Speaker 2
Yes.

01:19:31:14 - 01:19:38:10
Speaker 1
And what what you become exposed to is this David Lynch book?

01:19:38:10 - 01:19:40:09
Speaker 2
Yeah. Facing upwards.

01:19:40:11 - 01:19:41:23
Speaker 1
Yeah. Like.

01:19:42:00 - 01:19:44:20
Speaker 2
Yeah. Clearly highlighted on the table.

01:19:44:22 - 01:19:51:05
Speaker 1
And I believe that there are no coincidences and everything is happening for us. That was a synchronicity to me. You bought it.

01:19:51:07 - 01:19:52:02
Speaker 2
Oh yes.

01:19:52:04 - 01:20:00:17
Speaker 1
And then I, I almost I began to see your mind, starting to challenge your version of reality.

01:20:00:17 - 01:20:04:18
Speaker 2
And that's what I just thought. Yes, that's the point. I mean. Right, sorry if I dropped it.

01:20:04:24 - 01:20:09:03
Speaker 1
I want you to, as you speak about this process, it's.

01:20:09:05 - 01:20:31:20
Speaker 2
And I'm in. I'm struggling. My mind is struggling to make sense of that experience. Because. Because, yes, it aligned. First of all, we talked about it. I was area because my tattoo here is Twin Peaks. The owls are not what they seem. And the one below the watch is also from Twin Peaks. So we already talked about it.

01:20:31:20 - 01:20:48:06
Speaker 2
And the topic of the weekend was like consciousness meditation, spiritual stuff. Psilocybin was there. I don't know if I can say that here in the podcast. At my first psilocybin experience.

01:20:48:08 - 01:20:49:07
Speaker 1
Are you willing to talk about it?

01:20:49:08 - 01:21:11:24
Speaker 2
Of course. And then it aligned with that fucking book on the bookstore. Bookstore there, a book that is exactly about, first of all, David Lynch and Twin Peaks, but also about the main topic of our weekend together. And my mind is telling me still and I would still I'm not find the process I would attach to that one is just random coincidence.

01:21:12:01 - 01:21:16:11
Speaker 2
It's there and you're trying to help me see it's not.

01:21:16:13 - 01:21:31:03
Speaker 1
Yes, although I can't say I'm an expert on David Lynch. I think him and a lot of other people have learned that if you can tap in to a greater field.

01:21:31:05 - 01:21:38:19
Speaker 2
It's exactly how he described it. Exactly. Because I've been reading half of the book and hearing you talk about it. So I can say it's exactly that.

01:21:38:21 - 01:22:06:09
Speaker 1
When you tap into a greater field, you're exposed to higher intelligence. I'll use the word God, not everyone does. Someone, you know, just use it as a loving energy, a universal consciousness. I'm just gonna say it's a greater field. That we have exposure to the mind is, I think, what is tied to this physical 3D reality, that the ego sense of who we are, it's very survival.

01:22:06:11 - 01:22:28:18
Speaker 1
And it can be hijacked, captivated, controlled. But when we talk about this inner compass, I think it's in alignment and connection to this greater field. And, there is this loving force and there is this loving God that is there to guide us when we invite that energy in. And so I think we're always trying to be woken up to that.

01:22:28:18 - 01:22:47:01
Speaker 1
And that's what the synchronicities are. The too many of those experiences have happened to me. You don't just start talking about David Lynch, end up at a bookstore. It's pointing up to you. You buy it. And then there's concepts that we're actually discussing and are there for your growth and for your learning to challenge some ways of knowing things.

01:22:47:03 - 01:23:09:13
Speaker 1
So, I just called it as a synchronicity. When you believe everything is there for you, you're going to use it to your benefit. So you experimented with psilocybin, which is a, like a molecule chemical in mushrooms. Yeah. That have these properties on certain doses to impact consciousness, like to affect your understanding of reality.

01:23:09:18 - 01:23:28:18
Speaker 2
Which is something that I never done before I wanted to do before. Whatever. Even fucking smoked pot or hash or anything like no drugs, because I know I don't want it to work because I will be susceptible to it, because I don't want any, anything external that I take to actually work on quieting this noisy mind.

01:23:28:18 - 01:24:00:00
Speaker 1
So there's a disclaimer here. I want to make sure that the audience knows is that psilocybin, as a psychedelic, is well-researched, controlled trials. Now it's used to help people who have some of the most severe forms of like PTSD. And I can say one's victims of assault. Right. So understanding these mechanisms is not just like people recklessly using street drugs for something they know.

01:24:00:00 - 01:24:26:12
Speaker 1
This was a controlled environment for a particular reason. Very, and as mental health professionals ourselves trying to understand what are the mechanisms, how does it impact mind and consciousness and how can it be used for the betterment of humanity? And of course, where are the vulnerabilities to like? Those are those are important. So if you're willing to share your expertise, I think the audience would probably find this fascinating.

01:24:26:13 - 01:24:45:13
Speaker 2
So the story is so on on. You mentioned we we get to talk about microdosing. And so I, I try to microdose whatever that was 0.1 to very small or a small small dose on Saturday. And then you ask me throughout the day and on Sunday if I could feel it. And I was like, I don't really know.

01:24:45:13 - 01:24:47:17
Speaker 2
I was focused, but I could have been that anywhere.

01:24:47:19 - 01:24:49:12
Speaker 1
Now what were you doing?

01:24:49:14 - 01:24:54:05
Speaker 2
But on the first day I was just on Saturday, I was just, just working.

01:24:54:08 - 01:24:56:16
Speaker 1
You had your computer in front of you? Exactly. You were?

01:24:56:16 - 01:25:19:01
Speaker 2
Yeah, I was just working. I wrote to some staggering goals, actually, the one on the doc and the other. One point is the next day within talked. My answers of that question really led us to, okay, let's try something stronger then, because my answer was, I don't really know if I had an effect. So we we did. I hired certainly a higher dose, which was the thing we're talking about here right now, the strip you're putting in the tongue.

01:25:19:01 - 01:25:35:22
Speaker 2
And then it dissolves. And then I think I worked for like 15 minutes. I remember talking to you and Tracy, and we had a normal conversation, and then it just slowed me down in the way that I've been using in a positive way, in the way that I've been using alcohol for long periods of my time in a truly destructive way.

01:25:35:22 - 01:25:59:10
Speaker 2
So it kind of resembled that, which was kind of scary, because now I'm not drinking anymore, so I'm trying to move away from that. So for ten, 20, 30 minutes it resembled that. And then it just, you know, kept rising into what I and I remember using this word for you in kind of into a forced, mindful state, like however much I tried to worry and ruminate and fight, I couldn't.

01:25:59:10 - 01:26:25:06
Speaker 2
I was just constantly reverted back to being. And I was drinking tea. And like every part of the movement of taking that cup up to my mouth and drinking, I was hyper aware, which is kind of like a hack, like I know how to meditate and be mindful and be non-judgmental and in the moment of stuff. But this was like ways beyond which was positive, a positive experience.

01:26:25:08 - 01:26:45:09
Speaker 2
And then it got worse. As I talked to Tracy about and all, this was really, really interesting for me to experience because then for some reason it was it got an incredibly difficult for me to swallow. And I was like, this part of me tried to interpret that as dangerous, and it was certainly there, and it was just trying to stay on top of both.

01:26:45:11 - 01:27:15:10
Speaker 2
So for about 45 minutes, lying on the couch listening to music, and you were there working, I was kind of just living from swallow to swallow, because each one of them felt like it was really difficult. And obviously I got to pay a lot of attention to something that normally you just do. That was a fun experience, because I could just feel the part of me that wanted to fear it and being afraid, and now you're going to die and you probably have some condition that interacts with psilocybin.

01:27:15:10 - 01:27:19:02
Speaker 2
And we didn't know that at, you know, trying to create all this Doris.

01:27:19:04 - 01:27:21:07
Speaker 1
Power of the mind. Yeah.

01:27:21:09 - 01:27:49:14
Speaker 2
Yeah, it was there. Yeah. The mind was trying to so clearly the psilocybin and that's what it does. Right. It turns off that default network and pushes the, the the ego, the negative mind aside. But it was still over here trying to relax, trying to get its its version of reality and trying to make me fear it. But it was strong but a really cool, deep experience of of navigating that I survived.

01:27:49:14 - 01:27:55:08
Speaker 2
And then suddenly it stopped and I went for a walk and looked into three pigs eyes for ten minutes.

01:27:55:10 - 01:27:56:17
Speaker 1
What was that experience?

01:27:56:19 - 01:28:29:19
Speaker 2
That's really good. There were so cute. Three pigs at your place, and I can normally this would maybe be one of my main problems. As you've seen, I'm not good and in style. I do stuff almost all the time. I rarely just sit and look. So the first one of the first hours before meeting those pigs was I was literally just looking outside your window at the patterns of the tree branches behind, which was cool, cool for me to experience.

01:28:29:19 - 01:28:50:18
Speaker 2
And it was calm, like it was quiet as positive. It was not the negativity that my mind would usually. I was pushed aside for a moment, and then the same experience with those pigs, like I didn't want it. I did a lot of meat because I'm on keto and carnivore. Sometimes I don't. I'm not used. I'm not used to mouthing these words.

01:28:50:20 - 01:29:15:14
Speaker 2
It's new to me, but I felt. Connected to it in some way, that cute little pig. And it was really good at having I contact the pig for a lot of minutes just watching into those eyes, so I didn't want to eat it. Or not that particular pig, obviously, but pigs in general, which was also a topic of the weekend, right?

01:29:15:16 - 01:29:16:02
Speaker 1
Yeah, but.

01:29:16:02 - 01:29:18:10
Speaker 2
You just stopped eating pork.

01:29:18:12 - 01:29:44:22
Speaker 1
Yesterday. I did, well, this is interesting. So, I think and I'm theorizing here is when you slow down the default mode network, the mind which is connected to our survival, that can be easily hijacked. You get connected to a greater field, and we have the ability to almost like, like, switch a dial to a different frequency.

01:29:44:24 - 01:30:22:01
Speaker 1
And in that frequency it's, you know, different dimensions. And, I do believe that there are guides and spirits and, there's, there's essentially I think a lot of Christians would say, well, you never do something like this because you're leaving. It's like a portal that could open up to like even demonic forces and so forth. And I, I actually agree, I think there's, once you turn into greater frequencies and have this ability to quiet your mind and you're exposed to that, the same energies that exist outside the physical realm, both dark energies and obviously that of the light and good are both there for available.

01:30:22:01 - 01:30:45:04
Speaker 1
I just think there's universal principles of love and compassion and kindness that are very clearly, you know, influenced by that loving energy and then, you know, what we see on this physical plane harming others, attachment, anger, war, famine, you know, all these things about the illusion of separation and their desire to control that. You can also be exposed to that.

01:30:45:06 - 01:31:10:07
Speaker 1
So I'm not denying that. But sometimes I'm provided certain messages. One of them that happened this weekend was, well, you've had your last drink, like give up alcohol. And then another one was and this one was from the weekend, having a conversation with somebody that was, meaningful. And then further reinforced was don't eat pork.

01:31:10:09 - 01:31:31:18
Speaker 1
Okay. Well, I like bacon. You know, like sausage. But there was some reasons around energy not to mentioned certain aspects of like of that type of meat that can be problematic. And I believe that like it meant something. It hit me. Do I really do I really need to have alcohol. Do I really need to have pork in order to live a full life?

01:31:31:19 - 01:31:35:09
Speaker 1
Well, I don't, so I'm making a choice to give those up.

01:31:35:14 - 01:31:40:03
Speaker 2
Both had a pork experience this weekend.

01:31:40:05 - 01:31:44:15
Speaker 1
It's. Yeah. What? What were some other experiences after after the pig?

01:31:44:20 - 01:32:07:23
Speaker 2
It's I really I've. So the psychedelic field in particularly in Denmark overlaps a lot with my whatever my field is called critical psychiatry. So I know a lot of the people and I've, I think I've understood theoretically what psychedelics do. And so all this I've been doing for a long time, but experiencing it was definitely something different. I've had I've gone to and this was just yesterday.

01:32:07:23 - 01:32:11:22
Speaker 2
Right? Yes. Yes, it was yesterday.

01:32:11:24 - 01:32:14:16
Speaker 1
Yeah. So I mean, you're still integrating.

01:32:14:18 - 01:32:46:15
Speaker 2
Exactly. Integrating and fighting and resisting. And it's really fun thing to observe the parts of my mind trying to make sense of it and, you know, integrating and and transforming and rationalizing and all that. But I understand now better than before the difference. Like that drugs numbers shut down and psychedelics open up because that was the experience. Sure, it pushes something to the side the default mode network and the negativity and the and all these things that make survival negativity problem oriented.

01:32:46:15 - 01:33:09:05
Speaker 2
Comparing all the stuff that most people, I'm sure if they analyze their problems long enough, that's what they're trying to avoid with drugs or entertainment or addictions or whatever set aside. It's almost like the mushroom tricked my brain or my mind into thinking there is safety, so there's no need for that right now. And then what pops up?

01:33:09:07 - 01:33:28:12
Speaker 2
So I really finally understand that it it doesn't introduce or add something, it makes space for whatever that is, which was inherently positive, compassionate, calming, curious, interesting, forced, mindful.

01:33:28:14 - 01:33:29:08
Speaker 1
Yeah.

01:33:29:10 - 01:33:51:23
Speaker 2
Even to the well, obviously sensation to the body feels different when you're under that influence. But you know, a feeling every little moment. Huge overlap between what would try to what I'm trying to help people achieve through the mind only psychologically, through the sometimes longer, more troublesome ways of of meditation and attention techniques, but is really the same.

01:33:52:00 - 01:34:10:19
Speaker 2
So it was a profound experience. And the really cool thing about it is that I it's not like I woke up today and say, I want to get in there again to that degree. It's not like fueling that addictive part of me that just wants to enter that again and be there all the time. Yeah, I really can use it for something.

01:34:10:21 - 01:34:29:02
Speaker 2
Obviously this is day one. That's because I'm still integrating, but it's it's definitely helpful to have that door kicked in where you had these three, four hours, where there was just no sense of danger besides the the swallowing issue.

01:34:29:04 - 01:34:55:05
Speaker 1
Yeah. I think it's the beginning of something. I like to listen to those who've overcome the after effects of trauma. Where the system was keeping them stuck in it. So certainly combat veterans are the really important kind of group to evaluate. And they said some things very similar to what you say is that the exposure to this and I believe in what's called post-traumatic growth, right.

01:34:55:05 - 01:35:22:23
Speaker 1
Very established psychological principle of people going through something very, very challenging, traumatic in their lives and it being a catalyst for future growth and expansion. Right. Instead of something that's limiting and how that molecule has allows people to expand their consciousness to a greater understanding. So first of all, there are principles that sometimes are developed or experienced within that journey.

01:35:23:03 - 01:35:35:17
Speaker 1
And those are the ones of like compassion for self and others, forgiveness being another one, seeing the interconnectedness of all things in a way that relieves the judgment and the fear.

01:35:35:17 - 01:35:52:15
Speaker 2
Well, that's the pig. It's connected. I finally understand connected, and it always sounds so fluffy to me with this. Oh, you're connected to something else and you can even hear my voice. Now, the part of me even wants to ridicule it a bit because it sounds. It's not that scientific. Yeah, I have a PhD in that can have that.

01:35:52:15 - 01:35:53:20
Speaker 2
So. But I understand.

01:35:53:23 - 01:36:27:16
Speaker 1
A materialist Paradise is, you know, we're all separate in the materialist paradigm. Right? And we observe things separate. Is studying matter. It's studying the observable. But the mind is an observable. No. And that's. And you can't see emotions. Can't see energy. Not with the not with our eyesight. You know, the limitations of this physical reality. But we know scientifically about people's abilities and gifted to be able to hear or see or understand what is outside of the physical realm.

01:36:27:18 - 01:37:10:04
Speaker 1
We know from quantum physics that, energy can influence matter, and that thoughts are an energy and emotions are an energy. And it's, it begins to like the veil between the unknown and the known, the spiritual and the physical. It just becomes it becomes lifted and say, oh, there's some it's all it's all connected. Yes. You might be separate from the pig, in the fact that you're a physical matter and the big is a physical matter, and there's separation, but then you're aware of the energy that the pig exudes and you exude, and you're both in this field, and you both exist in the same.

01:37:10:04 - 01:37:10:20
Speaker 2
Place.

01:37:10:20 - 01:37:36:02
Speaker 1
At the same time. And that pig actually could serve a real. It does serve a rhythm or purpose for humanity and the earth, or it wouldn't be here. And then you start removing, aspects of our nature, the physical nature that it impacts all things. Right? You start cutting down trees, forests, Nick. It impacts our atmosphere, impacts the weather.

01:37:36:04 - 01:37:39:06
Speaker 1
You start seeing the interconnectedness of all things.

01:37:39:08 - 01:37:42:16
Speaker 2
There is something for my illogic, rationalizing mind.

01:37:42:18 - 01:37:43:12
Speaker 1
Go ahead.

01:37:43:14 - 01:38:05:11
Speaker 2
I'll just start interfering. There's an actual interface with the weather, with the with the nature, with environments. It's just the way you just described it. There was something for me. I don't know, to call it mind eco rational. What? I was trying to make sense of it. The opposite of all the spiritual connect. The fluffy part.

01:38:05:13 - 01:38:07:05
Speaker 1
There's a battle going on in the air.

01:38:07:05 - 01:38:26:20
Speaker 2
Right now, but there are so in Twin Peaks. That's what it's it's all about one of the main themes which we talked about so it's interesting, it's really interesting to be in this. Because it's a disruption to my patterns.

01:38:26:22 - 01:38:29:20
Speaker 1
Which I spoke to earlier about how it can be disorienting.

01:38:30:01 - 01:38:33:16
Speaker 2
It is disorienting. It's not an anomaly.

01:38:33:18 - 01:38:53:11
Speaker 1
And the inclination is to, like, retreat back. Yes. Right. Don't keep going. Don't question your version of reality. Follow the rules. It's safe. Go back to the village. Go by the fire. The food's there. People you love there follow the authority what they tell you to do that'll keep you safe.

01:38:53:13 - 01:39:26:22
Speaker 2
And it's the exact same mechanism I'm trying to just individually. Like you would see why the consciousness that the thing I entered under the trip, if that's what we call it, you'd see why that would be dangerous to the problem solving, survival oriented mind. Like, no wonder it's constantly pushing it away and. Insisting on this negativity and comparing and what if and if just and stuff.

01:39:26:22 - 01:40:04:17
Speaker 2
That's the part of the mind that's a job. It makes kind of sense that that's the default and hence the default mode network again just with the hunger. But it would be a stupid organism is if our default was positive and helpful and compassion to survival needs. So it good sense why all this that the I would just call the consciousness I don't know what to call it is a threat to our default mode network and therefore when we're not actively trained how to enter it, whether through meditation or the cheap trick to do a psilocybin, then it's just not there.

01:40:04:19 - 01:40:05:23
Speaker 2
Does that make sense?

01:40:06:00 - 01:40:06:19
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's there.

01:40:06:19 - 01:40:16:12
Speaker 2
But it's just constantly covered up by what most people would refer to as the mind. But that's just a part of the mind, really, that most people have access to the negativity.

01:40:16:14 - 01:40:39:15
Speaker 1
And the way that I look at it is the default mode network. It's necessary. Like I need to know that I have to stop at a red light when I'm driving my car. Now that's survival. To stay alive in this physical world, we need certain things. And then I expand it. To what? Other than those rules just for survival, what else has the ego created?

01:40:39:17 - 01:41:10:23
Speaker 1
And the ego has created this version of you. Doctor Anders Sorenson, international expert author. You know, and so there's this identity and and you don't want to lose that. Right. So it's tied with our security, financial security. Our professional lives are very much connected to our, our needs and our desires to, for safety and security.

01:41:10:23 - 01:41:11:08
Speaker 2
Oh yes.

01:41:11:12 - 01:41:35:08
Speaker 1
Right. Because you're so afraid of losing your status, you don't want to be kicked out of the tribe. It is so biologically ingrained in our DNA to not move outside the tribe or we're going to die. And so that's the provocation of fear. That's why it's so difficult to find enough people who are willing to go into the forest and keep walking for their authority.

01:41:35:08 - 01:42:03:17
Speaker 1
They be something higher than them, right? To be that loving force like God is my authority, not Anthony Fauci or, you know, whoever else is telling you what you need to do. Right? And it's funny, like, God, I can go in rabbit holes. How like Hollywood is used, like in our culture, I think the worshiping of people who became famous, you know, as if somehow they're better than you and you're lesser than that.

01:42:03:17 - 01:42:03:24
Speaker 1
It's our.

01:42:03:24 - 01:42:07:14
Speaker 2
Gods now. It's a false extreme Western god figure.

01:42:07:15 - 01:42:30:13
Speaker 1
Yeah. And that's why I one of my themes when I was speaking at ISI, was to really take an honest reflection of a culture in decline and what has gotten us there, you know, when you these are certain things that you value in American culture. You saw this definitely during the pandemic is the liquor stores stayed open. The churches got closed.

01:42:30:15 - 01:43:02:12
Speaker 1
Yeah. What is what is free? Pornography is free and pushed. But then other things that are, really necessary for our health, well, being thriving, you know, can be very costly. You know, we push gambling, we push weed, we push pharmaceuticals. These things are our constantly entertainment, are constantly being pushed to captivate our minds. And then you're controlled within that apparatus.

01:43:02:12 - 01:43:26:10
Speaker 1
You're always trying to seek out some short term pleasure. And for this podcast to go full circle, it's to understand that that's all. Those are all traps, that short term pleasure, that escape, that entertainment. It's to keep you asleep and you'll never awaken to your full capabilities. If you're controlled by that apparatus.

01:43:26:13 - 01:43:48:07
Speaker 2
Again, that is full circle. Actually, back to the first point we made are trying to make that that's what we're that's what we're motive. It's the element of motivation. Again, it's not necessarily that's the purpose of the pain is to bring about some change or something in our lives. But the element of where we feel it is just ourselves off the page.

01:43:48:07 - 01:44:10:21
Speaker 2
So all those things you just mentioned were equally motivated to approach and do, distract, entertain, numb because that's just the element of it that we're motivated to rid ourselves of, but then just have to keep. If you don't do what the message calls for, you just have to keep doing it. Then the repetitive eating, entertaining, watching, distracting, suppressing behavior comes in.

01:44:10:23 - 01:44:21:12
Speaker 1
Yeah, I feel very strongly, here to to break up the pattern.

01:44:21:14 - 01:44:52:11
Speaker 1
I think I'm here to, on this or when I say here, I mean on this earth, I mean, my soul is to, awaken as many people as possible to the psychological operations. And, I do see this as a spiritual battle. I do think there's dark principles and principalities energies. That are trying to keep us disconnected and detached from that divine universal consciousness, one where we all can awaken to all the possibilities of revolution and what we can create on this, on this earth.

01:44:52:13 - 01:45:15:05
Speaker 1
We're going to do it, I have no doubt. But you're not going to be able to do it with fear, provocation. You can't use the same weapons of war that they're using. You have to. You have to do it from a more loving, an awakening energy. Right? Yes. We can use some logic and reason because we're living in that world, right?

01:45:15:05 - 01:45:32:13
Speaker 1
But it can't be all mine. It's got to be something spiritual. It's got to be something energetic. And I think what I'm trying to learn is how do you create that from within? And then your message is more powerful because it's coming from a place of love and not of not of fear. I think that's how you awaken hearts and minds.

01:45:32:15 - 01:45:57:21
Speaker 2
And prepare people that waking up hurts like breaking any pattern hurts. You know that from therapy to like, even when you help people out of the most destructive avoidance or being hard on themselves or doing something that obviously hurts them, and then they want to get away from even a negative self story. There's still an element of the body that might want to keep us in that space.

01:45:57:21 - 01:46:18:16
Speaker 2
Like if you stop smoking, for example. The silly example maybe, but oh, listeners were on the stand. Smoking is 100% bad for the body, but it's not like it rewards you for stopping smoking. If you're doing it for a long time. It's instinct is to punish you at first with withdrawal, right? And then awaits. There's really trying to, which is the same mechanism for withdrawal, psychiatric drug withdrawal.

01:46:18:16 - 01:46:34:23
Speaker 2
Obviously they're just trying to make we should prepare people that this awakening and waking up, they would talk about even though it's good, it doesn't necessarily feel all positive, right, when you start it because you're disturbing, you're introducing dissonance and friction into the system. Does that make sense?

01:46:35:00 - 01:46:36:18
Speaker 1
Like that fact? I think it's brilliant.

01:46:36:24 - 01:47:01:05
Speaker 2
People should because otherwise people would be still in their egos. Okay, this this awakening thing that they're talking about doesn't feel right. Good. It must be wrong. Then retreat back. Yes, it's trying to help people to see that. Obviously it hurts. Breaking any pattern or habit or system hurts because the system resists change. That's what makes it a system.

01:47:01:07 - 01:47:05:05
Speaker 2
And hence you're walking into the woods metaphor.

01:47:05:07 - 01:47:14:11
Speaker 1
That's, that's the perfect statement to end on. Before I let you go, where can people find your book?

01:47:14:13 - 01:47:16:24
Speaker 2
Just an Amazon. It's an Amazon.

01:47:17:01 - 01:47:18:19
Speaker 1
How's it to easy to find?

01:47:18:21 - 01:47:20:11
Speaker 2
It's doing well.

01:47:20:13 - 01:47:21:19
Speaker 1
What's it called?

01:47:21:21 - 01:47:41:16
Speaker 2
Crossing zero. The art and science of coming off and staying off psychiatric drugs. And it's a funny book because it has all that that we talked about last time, all the technical stuff, all the really geeky brain stuff of how to reduce the dose and how to come off and how not to do it, and how to manage withdrawal and what happens in the brain.

01:47:41:16 - 01:48:15:02
Speaker 2
And then section three shifts into what we're talking about here with emotions and thoughts and trauma. And because I want to that's why the title so long, I want to help people to come off safely without causing too much withdrawal and to stay off, which is a completely different question. And if you don't reach these depths of what emotions are and what it means to be human and what suffering is and isn't, and just continue out into of the, you know, your resurfacing social emotional range without help and understanding what that is.

01:48:15:02 - 01:48:40:09
Speaker 2
Then most people, I think, would retreat back to to the drug again, not because of withdrawal, but because they weren't prepared for what that is. So a lot of what we're talking about here, I even go through everything, most of the emotions. What's anger, what's sadness, what's sorrow, what's anxiety. Okay. It's conveyed signals. So I'm trying to just without intervening and telling people exactly what to do, provide them with the framework that's more hopeful.

01:48:40:09 - 01:49:13:15
Speaker 1
And less fearful. And I think what today's episode is, I think it's a reflection on how getting off psychiatric drugs safely, which is a a tool of that dark energy. I think it's a it's a mitochondrial poison. I think it's so dangerous and so damaging. Getting off of it isn't just about the body. We have to learn, for the lack of a better word, how to regulate these internal states that we've have been conditioned in fear, for so long.

01:49:13:17 - 01:49:28:06
Speaker 1
And I think today's conversation was, an in depth kind of understanding of, of what that says, under source and this was truly a radically genuine conversation. And,

01:49:28:08 - 01:49:29:13
Speaker 2
In many ways, I'm.

01:49:29:13 - 01:49:51:07
Speaker 1
So grateful that, that people are going to hear this. It's feels like one of those situations, one of those episodes that more people have to hear, you know? So you just you just hope that people share this. Because people ask me often is like, how do I, oh, how do I get another person that's close to me to awaken to all of this?

01:49:51:07 - 01:50:00:15
Speaker 1
Because they're being captivated by the by the brainwashing? Maybe something like a conversation like today would be important just to have them listen to.

01:50:00:15 - 01:50:11:20
Speaker 2
It, create our own resource for people to the go to show people. Yes. So I hope to see your listeners out there and on my Substack and on my everywhere. I'd love to see them there.

01:50:11:20 - 01:50:30:03
Speaker 1
Crossing zero is is the name of the Substack. Yes. Well, safe travels out west. I know you're you're heading out west to see a little bit more of this beautiful country heading out west today as well to, get filmed for a documentary on SSRI so that, like, people are waking up and and will use that medium to do that.

01:50:30:05 - 01:50:46:04
Speaker 1
But very grateful spending the weekend with you and listening to you at the conference. And, I think this is more of, this is something that's going to be, like the first step of, I think, of a longer journey together. And I think awakening not only to this country, but like the globe.

01:50:46:06 - 01:50:48:07
Speaker 2
Exactly. Let's do it. Thanks for having me.

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