Radically Genuine Podcast with Dr. Roger McFillin

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:26.722)
Welcome to the radically genuine podcast. I am Dr. Roger McFillin. When was the last time your doctor asked you how to breathe? Not if you're breathing, but how? Whether you breathe through your nose or your mouth? How many breaths you take per minute? Whether your breathing pattern might be the hidden cause behind anxiety, insomnia, or that CPAP machine gathering dust in your closet. If you're like most people, the answer is never. Many of us are breathing wrong right now as you listen to this.

You're likely taking in too much air, possibly too fast, keeping your nervous system locked in a chronic state that no amount of meditation, medication or therapy can fully resolve. And according to my guests today, that oversight might be one of the biggest blind spots in modern medicine. Dr. Lashon is a double board certified osteopathic physician who did something almost heard of. She walked away from a successful 20 year hospital.

career when she realized that the medical system was asking her to work against everything she knew about true healing. She refused to comply with mandates that violated her medical understanding. She lost her position. She found her purpose. Today. She's here to reveal why she believes breathing is the missing pillar of health. Why conventional medicine only addresses one third of the breathing equation and how a method developed by a Ukrainian doctor in 19.

holds more promise for conditions like asthma, anxiety, sleep apnea, and potentially a range of other conditions that most modern medical doctors fail to truly understand. Dr. Amy Lashon, thank you for joining the Radically Genuine Podcast.

Amy Lichon (03:13.965)
Thank you so much and that was an amazing introduction. Thank you.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (03:19.118)
Yeah. Thank you for being here. We met at a conference not too long ago. I sat in on your workshop. I learned something new. thought my audience had to learn something new, but you sent me a very intriguing email before we started this podcast episode yesterday where you spoke. I think about things that are probably important for my listening audience to know about your story, like how you go from a

double board certified physician. think you were working in anesthesiology. and now your career looks completely different.

Amy Lichon (03:57.421)
Yes and no. So yeah, was at the place that I worked as an anesthesiologist for 20 years when they started mandating the COVID vaccine. I questioned it and I applied for a religious exemption and they did give me a religious exemption. But then the penalty was to get

nasal swab testing every, it had to be every three days or you would be in jeopardy of losing your position. And so after doing that nasal swab for, I don't know, a couple of months, I'm like, I'm just done. I'm not doing this anymore. But then at the same time, the thing that actually got me quote unquote kicked out of the facility was then it was time for

your flu vaccine. And so that is when I said, okay, well, I already have the religious exemption for COVID. I also, you know, nothing has changed in my, my belief system. I still believe that I have a God given immunity that I'm really not afraid of the flu and I think my body could handle it. So I don't want to take that. Well, they, they said I, they did not accept my exemption. And so I appealed it.

And that's when they said basically, you cannot step into this building. That was kind of the verbiage. You can't walk into this building as a physician if you don't have a flu vaccine. So, as it turned out, so the one thing in the story in the intro is I haven't completely walked away from anesthesia. I am still practicing anesthesia. I got hired very quickly at a different place.

And they didn't require any of those shots. They said, we don't care. That is fine if you don't want to do that. So I quickly found another home. But it was quite shocking to go through that process of really being shamed, I would say, in your medical community when pretty much every single other doctor I was working with was, you know,

Amy Lichon (06:21.087)
excited to have these shots. So it was very, very eye-opening because I think we all went to a similar medical school and know that getting that actually could be a benefit and that our natural immunity is a thing because we were challenged that natural immunity wasn't a thing anymore. Yeah. So yeah, I am still working as an anesthesiologist and that's one of the things that got me into breathing was

that what I had noticed in my career was a couple things. I would say the incidents that I was seeing, not that I was reading about it, was two things. Sleep apnea was off the charts, and a lot of it wasn't diagnosed. And then the other thing was anxiety. And those two things really directed my care and my position.

because managing somebody with sleep apnea as an anesthesiologist is a little bit more difficult. Obviously breathing is one of the main things that I'm in charge of when somebody's under anesthesia. And I was just starting to say, why is this? Why is so many people having this issue and what is being done about it? And most people, as you mentioned, if they were on CPAP, they didn't use it because they couldn't tolerate it.

or they would use it part of the night and take it off because it disrupted their sleep. And so then you have a whole other issue of the insomnia and all the downstream effects of that.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (08:06.671)
So do you think that this period in your life, I think for many of us going through COVID, became an awakening for other lessons, gifts, finding ourselves, finding our courage, finding our passion? Were you drawn closer to this area of practice for you?

Amy Lichon (08:28.237)
100%. I feel like there's a lot of people like you and I who will say COVID was probably the biggest blessing ever. At the time, think I never honestly felt afraid of the actual virus how they wanted us to. I just never had that. It didn't occur to me that I should be afraid of it because I did believe that I was a healthy person and the only people I thought that were getting actually

dying from it were people that already had major comorbidities. But that being said, I think I found also an amazing community who also had beliefs like I did. And we all found each other in my community and around the country and around the world really. And I think that I feel like it's one of the most proud things that I've ever done is walk away.

from a place that couldn't see the view that I had, or even just respect the view. Maybe you don't have the same view, but not respecting it. I feel like it's given me courage to do other things. And also knowing that when I am in that truthful place for myself, like I said, I got hired within a week. And it was just like, like you say, when you take that step.

that the universe is supporting you. And that's exactly what happened for me.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (10:02.157)
Yeah, there's that. And there's that faith that comes with it, like trusting that it will be provided for you. if it's okay, I want to read a little bit of the email that you sent me actually was on August 3rd. and it's just really intriguing to me cause I want some clarification on, you know, from your end, because I think we share maybe similar experiences. And, this is what you wrote. I guess I was just born with a knowing.

Amy Lichon (10:04.876)
Mm-hmm.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (10:29.355)
In my DNA that my body carried messages that if I listened, it would guide me. went to medical school believing I would learn more about this amazing thing in my body that my soul entered into this world. However, the education and degrees did not provide that. And then you spoke about kind of living a double life. So, I mean, that is so intriguing. I just want to know more about what you mean by that.

Amy Lichon (10:54.753)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Lichon (10:59.637)
Yeah. yeah, a hundred percent. I went to medical school. I didn't care about quote unquote, like the degree, the, the higher education aspect. even though I think that's awesome, I really felt like, I thought what I was entering was a place and a mechanism to study some of the things that I felt inside my body as being what I would say as spiritual.

and magical and wondrous. And those are all words that I would not apply to what I learned in medical school, even though I am grateful for my education. And I think that I definitely feel like it has a place. But I think that the overriding part of what I feel like my soul was here to do in health hasn't even been fully

I don't feel like my greatest contribution to other people in the healthcare space has been.

I think it's been muted because of the path that I have been on. But I feel like now I feel like the trajectory, I'm taking everything that I've learned and where I've come from. And it's only additive now. And to take that on into a bigger direction, which the breath work is part of it. And it's really trying to help people believe in themselves more instead of looking outside for the pill, for the doc, for the person that's going to

fix them, rather than looking inside to what can I do? What is empowering? Where is my natural state? And to drop into the body. And really, I think that the major program on our planet right now is survival. And I feel until we can get into the embodiment and drop into that, that is the space that I feel like with

Amy Lichon (13:07.381)
a lot of the stuff that you've probably seen with mental health is,

You can't fix the problem by thinking so much about it all the time. We know we all find answers when we're out in nature in a quiet space and like things you will say, wow, this just came to me. And you weren't trying. Those are natural processes in our body that I don't, I feel like I want to be one of those people that's trying to nurture people to understand better.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (13:40.207)
I love that. And I want to talk more about it. I think what you're saying is entering into the space of receiving where we can actually disconnect from the ego, from the mind and drop down into the body in a place of stillness. And within that we are what I believe to be divinely gifted with an intelligence, with a wisdom. And sometimes we just have to

ask really, like we have to ask for what we need and what we're looking for and then have the faith that we're going to receive. And when we're connected to the mind, the ego, which is survival, as you mentioned, as an operating system, we are kind of in this place of separateness, like we're disconnected from all things. We're just kind of from God, the greater universe, each other. We see ourselves as separate, alone. And of course that puts us in a state

of really like defensiveness and being able to survive. the mind worries, the mind creates stories, it judges, it predicts, and you're not really in the eternal now that exists. And I think a lot of suffering and disease arises from those conditions. So I'd be interested to know what you mean about going inward, relying.

on that going into your body. How do you recommend that people do that? would imagine breath is probably could be a very important aspect of it.

Amy Lichon (15:11.949)
Mm hmm. Yeah, for sure. And I'm going to get to that. I think the breath is definitely something I found that does foster that state a lot better. And just getting back to kind of the beginnings of, again, why I went to the medical school stuff and.

dropping into the body. So I grew up just, and still am consider myself just as part of my identity as an athlete. And I played tennis for college. And then I, after medical school got into triathlon and I've had many, many flow state experiences through sport where I vividly remember, I was thinking about this yesterday because I had a feeling this may sort of come up in a certain way.

But I would have some tennis matches where all of a sudden I realized I'm not the one hitting the ball. And I would be like, who is this person hitting the ball? It's not me. Like I'm not there. And I'm like, there's something behind this. And to be honest, that is one of the driving factors. And I love I love seeing athletes get into that space because you can almost see it.

Like you can see when somebody's in a different state. And to me, that's something that's always, always fascinated me. And it's a way that I still access that oneness, I would say. I think there's a lot of like the yogis, I feel like Joe Dispenza, if you know his work, there's a lot of teachers out there.

trying to assist getting into that state because I think you're a new, you're different. It's you, but your source. You're a part of all. And

Amy Lichon (17:22.369)
I think when you have flashes of that experience.

I think it does ground you. think it causes less worry about the minutiae because you do see the vastness of who you are. And I'm not sure if I'm answering your question at this point because I'm just getting into how...

how that

is something I feel like is almost like a lost art in a way. yes, but onto the breathing. So again, with like the ancient yogis 2000 years ago, I think that one of the things yoga now I think is mostly a physical practice. But back then it was, I think it was a way to access again, this kind of oneness state. And they very much were about the breath.

And the interesting thing is, in my studies now doing the buteyko type of breathing, is what they were doing is breath holds. So they were accessing a different state of mind by extending the hold of the breath. And that did help create a state of when you increase the CO2, which is what you're doing when you breath hold.

Amy Lichon (18:49.153)
they're increasing the carbon dioxide in the bloodstream and that has many effects on the body, one of which is calming the nervous system. In fact, there was a time that CO2 was actually entrained in the body as a treatment for epilepsy because it had such an effect on the nervous system in quieting the brain, but it didn't earn enough money.

And the drug is the pharmaceutical system quickly got rid of that treatment. But that's how much of an effect the CO2 can have on the nervous system.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (19:29.486)
This is fascinating. You mentioned is it butaco method? Yeah, butaco method. And that's who you've you trained directly with that organization, right, Patrick McKeown. So why did you choose that particular method? Like, what did you know about a given all that? I mean, there's so much information out there around breathing some of its contradictory. And I learned actually new things from sitting in your workshop.

Amy Lichon (19:42.539)
Yeah, exactly.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (19:58.336)
Why the Buteyko method?

Amy Lichon (20:00.385)
so one, was introduced to it from my acupuncture. She told me about it because she had had, experience herself with it. And so I started looking into it. And then I also read the book Breathe by James Nestor, which is a fabulous read, an amazing book. And he talks about the Buteyko method in that book and talks about Patrick McCown.

And so then when I started looking into it, what I realized is it was probably the most studied and the most therapeutic of the breathing techniques that I had come across. Not that I had been shopping around for it. I feel like it kind of just came to me. And when I was looking at it, it felt like it had the most application for things that I was frustrated with, like the sleep apnea, like asthma, like anxiety states.

not just for like say, like Wim Hof is an amazing, I think, very extreme athlete. And I don't know a lot about his method. I think some people have benefited, but it's kind of the opposite of Buteyko. Buteyko is gentler. It is for your everyday breathing. And I do think there's a difference between

getting good at just your regular daily functional breathing versus doing some of the other breath work that might be more niche or more like once you've got that, okay, yeah, let's go explore some of these other types of breath work. But that's the other thing I really love about it is it's very easy to do. It's pretty simple. You can do it anywhere, obviously, because you breathe everywhere you go. And it's been proven with a lot of research.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (21:50.588)
Okay, and we're definitely going to get into the specifics, but you know, just some foundational questions here first, because I've noticed that you've discussed that like a large percentage of people who are like struggling with some symptoms that get labeled in a psychiatric system, like anxiety, ADHD, could actually be rooted back to like fundamental problems in

like breathing dysfunction. Can you kind of let me know what people should be looking for and explain really what are those dysfunctional areas that can be corrected?

Amy Lichon (22:33.505)
Yep. So there's definitely a lot of interplay between breathing, sleep, and mental state and emotional. so back to what we were talking about in the very beginning when you did the intro about, has your doctor asked you about how you breathe or how you sleep? for a child that is now being questioned whether they have ADHD,

and they're in the school and the teacher thinks, you know, their behavior really is reflecting a lot of hyperactivity, can't stay still, can't pay, can't focus. And then you probably know more about the process than I would about how that child ends up being labeled and put on medication. But I would say 90 % of those children have not been asked or observed for how are they breathing? How are they sleeping at night?

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (23:32.091)
I'd say 99.9%. In fact, I've never even heard of it before.

Amy Lichon (23:33.533)
Yes, right. Yep.

Yeah, and it absolutely is related. So what happens with an adult who's not breathing well at night and say they're having a restless night of sleep and they're getting night after night of that, they get tired and they get exhausted and their energy might be very low. But for a child and their nervous system, it's the opposite. They get hyperactive and that's proven. And I do feel like it's an area that

I would love to try to get more awareness around because obviously when you, and I, my second board certification is in pediatric anesthesia. So I've done tons of tonsillectomy adenoidectomies for children who aren't breathing well at night. And yes, maybe they have large tonsils, but again, their ENTs, I asked the guy I worked with recently. I'm like, so when you, after you take the tonsils out and the adenoids out,

you know, do you address their behavior around breathing? He's like, oh no, they just go back to breathing normal. And I'm like, I'm not so sure about that. Because one, I don't think you asked him in the first place. And so there's so many kids that could really be helped by a little bit earlier detection of their sleeping habits and just,

getting back to just closing their mouth at night. I think that in the talk that I gave, I showed you that picture, that photo of a young child. Well, I think he was maybe five. He got that gerbil and then he started getting allergic reaction. And so his nose was stuffed all the time. And so he started breathing through his mouth. Within three years, his whole the cranial facial structure of his entire face changed.

Amy Lichon (25:36.846)
And that's how important breathing is at night, is that the whole anatomy is going to shift.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (25:46.363)
Okay, so the first thing that we have to be aware of, the question is, I'm sure the audience is going to ask this question too. Well, how do I know that I'm not breathing correctly? So you just mentioned there breathing through your mouth versus breathing through your nose. Can you speak about some of the dynamics about how we should be breathing properly?

Amy Lichon (26:04.269)
Correct. Patrick McCown says, if you can name one structure in the mouth for breathing, that would be amazing because there are none. Your nose is meant for breathing. Your mouth is for talking, eating, drinking, and kissing if you're lucky. So the mouth is not meant for that. The structures in there do not support breathing. The nose is the structure that we were designed to use to breathe.

And that has several advantages. One is the gases that you're in training, which is CO2 and nitric oxide. But so back to your question, how should we breathe? We should be breathing through our nose all the time. Unless you're doing some of those other things with your mouth, you should be breathing through your nose. That's one of the main tenants. The other thing that Buteyko teaches is the rate at which you're breathing.

There is a test that Buteyko does and it's called the controlled pause. So it's very easy to do. You'll take a breath in and out and you're going to pinch your nose and you're going to hold it. And then you're going to count or you just take out your watch or your phone and see how many seconds you can hold it until you feel a definite urge to breathe. Usually that urge comes from the diaphragm.

or maybe a sensation in the throat, those are signs then you stop the test. If it's, mm-hmm.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (27:36.316)
So is it an urge or until you can't do it anymore?

Amy Lichon (27:40.041)
No, it's just that first definite urge. It's not like I can hold it for a really long time. Correct. It's just a definite urge to breathe. I know.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (27:45.702)
Yeah. I dislike that urge to breathe. what's the time we should be looking for?

Amy Lichon (27:53.229)
So you want it above 30. It's common to see less than 15. Less than 10 is severe dysfunction. Between 10 and 20 seconds is moderate dysfunction. 20 to 30 is improved. And the 30 to 40 range is where we want to be.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (28:16.531)
Okay, so 30 to 40 seconds before we even experience that urge to breathe, that sensation, like one.

Amy Lichon (28:21.601)
sensation. Yeah, that sensation. And like I said, for me, I feel it in my diaphragm. Like that's the muscle between your chest and your abdomen, the big muscle, the main driver of your breath is the diaphragm. And for me, that's what it is. I can feel like my diaphragm is like, okay, I'm ready to breathe now.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (28:39.867)
Understood. Okay. So that's an initial test. One of the things I want to ask you about is you see like this is being pushed commercially now is like this mouth tape for when you're sleeping. So you don't breathe through your mouth. So you just breathe through your nose. Have you are you aware of that? Is that something you use in practice?

Amy Lichon (28:59.425)
Yep. yes, for sure. Mouth tape can be absolutely life changing for a lot of people, especially I would say people with CPAP usage. gentleman that I worked with, he came to me with sleep apnea issues and a lot of other illness, hypertension and tired all the time. And that's one of the things that we did for him is mouth taping.

And that significantly helped him tolerate his CPAP. The thing I will say about taping is I know for myself, I tried taping years ago and I was just like, this is freaking me out. I'm not doing it. And I was just using like some medical tape over my mouth. But Patrick McCowen, he developed something called MyoTape.

So the whole point of taping, it's not to like, you know, make it feel like a hostage in any way. It's all it needs to do is get the lips opposed. And so what his tape does, you know, I'm not getting anything from this. He, I think had a brilliant idea. It's very much like a kinesio tape. So it's very stretchable and it has a hole in the middle. So it's, it's.

It's very friendly to use and I do think it has a lot of advantages for helping get that behavior of breathing through the nose more entrained by closing the mouth. The other thing is with kids, what we'll do is use that during the day, like say if they're doing homework, watching TV, put the myotape on during the day. So again, you're trying to get neurologically change the behavior.

of how the person's breathing.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (30:58.363)
Okay. most people think that we actually need more oxygen, right? So even in my field, in combating panic attacks, you know, we're doing diaphragmatic breathing, but we're trying to increase the amount of oxygen, right? But you explain this carbon dioxide paradox. and I think this is like something that's probably new to most people. can you just explain,

what that means and how this acts as like the foundation for what we're going to learn.

Amy Lichon (31:28.237)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep.

Yeah, so there is a paradox. The less you breathe, the more you oxygenate your body. I'll say it again. I'm going to say it again. Yeah, okay. The less you breathe, the more you oxygenate your body. And I mean the tissues, like your whole body. And that happens scientifically for two reasons. And again,

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (31:40.563)
Yeah, you're have to repeat that again. Slow this time for everybody.

Amy Lichon (32:00.329)
learned this in medical school, but it was forgotten. CO2, again, getting back to one of the foundations of Buteyko is working with this carbon dioxide and getting your brain, which is the brain stem, which is the respiratory center in your brain to be less sensitive to the carbon dioxide levels.

So going back to the oxygenation, when your CO2 is higher, what you're doing is two things. One, you're vasodilating, you're making the blood vessels larger. Low CO2 does the opposite, it constricts, it reduces blood flow. So you're dilating the blood vessels. you have 50,000 miles of blood vessels and you can affect them with your breath.

All of them. The other thing CO2 does, it's called the Bohr equation. And this was from 1904. He discovered that in the presence of CO2, the hemoglobin molecule, which is carrying the oxygen, will be more readily to release the oxygen to the tissues in the presence of CO2. So I'll say that part again.

In the presence of CO2, there's an equation where the hemoglobin molecule, which is carrying the oxygen that you took in into your lungs, into the bloodstream, will release that more readily to the tissues. And that is why you oxygenate better with less breath.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (33:50.045)
So what are the implications of this? Like what would be the health consequences of doing this?

Amy Lichon (33:56.429)
First from the, let's start from the top. So mentally, you're gonna be oxygenating the brain better. So when you're in, when your brain is oxygenated better, you're gonna be thinking better, you can focus, you can concentrate. Your heart and your blood vessels, so blood pressure will normalize. Also heart.

many people with heart arrhythmias getting back to like doctors who don't ask about breathing, many heart arrhythmias can be affected by breathing too much. So your heart, your immunity will be better. Your gut react, your gut motility will be better. And that's because your parasympathetic nervous system is more in balance. A lot of us

just our lifestyle again, getting back to that survival mode that we are operating in, we're more sympathetic. So we have two arms of the autonomic nervous system, the sympathetic and the parasympathetic. And what the breath does is activate that rest and digest system. And really all of us could use a little bit more augmentation of our parasympathetic system.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (35:20.423)
Fascinating here. So I guess the question is that if we're going to be breathing less, I guess we're going to be taking in more breaths or less breaths per minute is what you're saying. I'm curious, what would be the optimal rate? Like if we were to measure it, time it.

Amy Lichon (35:42.061)
Yeah, so I would say like 12 breaths per minute is optimal. But that being said, that's kind of just doing your life. There is a way to optimally work with the breath at a lower rate. It's this magical number of six breaths per minute. This comes from studies out of HeartMath Institute. If you know HeartMath, I worked with them like 10 years ago.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (35:45.531)
Okay.

Amy Lichon (36:11.145)
and still, I still every morning, that was my actual first introduction with breath work is through heart math and.

That type of breathing is called cadence breathing. And so when you breathe six breaths per minute, what you're doing is coordinating. The heart has a frequency of 0.1 hertz. That's six cycles per minute. So when you match the heart's rhythm and the lungs breath work of six cycles per minute, that's six breaths per minute, you create a state of coherence.

So if you're talking about optimal, like, yeah, maybe six breaths would be optimal to be really in a coherent state, but in your everyday on task kind of state, I would say your respiratory rate, I would gear more towards 12.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (37:08.062)
So possibly in a meditation practice, especially maybe like a heart focused meditation, heart math has these meditations, you would try to optimally slow down and only get six breaths per minute. Okay. Another question before we get into some practice. I know you're an athlete. I think I read that you were also a triathlete.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (37:39.477)
Training athletes. I have a son who's a Division I athlete. I'm a former athlete, certainly want to optimize my health. Let's say we're trying to improve our VO2 max. Are you suggesting that we should like exercise also like in an oxygen deprived state to the best of our ability in order to like optimize all these health implications, these consequences that you're stating?

Amy Lichon (38:01.388)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Lichon (38:05.227)
Yep. Yeah. So this is a super interesting area. And so the short answer is yes. But getting athletes to back off for their training is not super easy. And so that's what it would take. I for the listeners and any athletes out there who are interested, there's a guy from Colorado State University. He's written a whole book. His name is George Dolem.

D-A-H-L-A-M. He has done probably some of the most research on athletes using, like I would say, this breath retraining. And he's got all the science behind it. He's tried to work with a couple real high end athletes and they kind of bag it a little bit because they can't reach their peak.

as fast because it does take in, you know, it's going to take probably, I would say three months of nasal breathing before you start adapting. And there are ways you can use like a tape over the nose. That's what I do when I run. I use what's it called? It's just like a dilator. It just minimally dilates the airway so that you can take in a little bit more. But from my training,

The bulk of, at least for in the triathlon world, and I think this probably extrapolates to many other sports is the zone that you're working in that you are going to get, that you're doing the most, let's say 80 % of your work is in what you call zone two. You're not, your everyday training isn't at zone four. You're not at max. Like you train in zone two so that you build this humongous depth of aerobic ability.

And then once that system is firmly developed, that's when you really can get the higher end spectrum, even more so. And that's my understanding. That's also what George Dahlem says is that if you're spending that time there, you will see the benefits at your higher end speed or pace or whatever that may be. He also says that he's seen a lot of cardiac fibrosis.

Amy Lichon (40:27.731)
and athletes that are mouth breathing all the time. I personally have known several people that have had cardiac, a fib, atrial fibrillation, because they're taxing their body in a sympathetic mode all the time and in almost always mouth breathing. It's, uncommon to see athletes nose breathing, which is crazy because they think they're doing something great for their body.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (40:56.041)
Yeah. Okay. let's get a little specific about certain conditions. so as chronic insomnia, for example, and they, you know, I've tried everything in the medical system, right? what are you, what are your recommendations for somebody who like, you know, I know a lot of people have a hard time falling asleep. They wake up frequently have

a hard time then going back to sleep. What do you think may be occurring there if they actually went through a like a sleep study?

Amy Lichon (41:33.389)
Yeah, so there are, there is like an arousal threshold that can happen with just poor breathing during the day. So per Buteyko, the biggest impact that you can make on your nighttime breathing, which will definitely influence your restful sleep is your daytime breathing. And so I think that's,

That's a great thing because that means you have control over it. And with the buteyko practice, ideally you have 60 minutes of practice a day of the buteyko method, the proper practice. And I think once you can reestablish, just like I was saying, even with the children using mouth during the day, and there's studies showing that daytime breathing, functional breathing,

The better that is, the better that feeds into your nighttime breathing. And as I was saying before, a lot of the times is that sympathetic system, not really being turned off at night. And again, getting that parasympathetic more in the dominance at night. That's where the Buteyko method and any breathing method that's going to calm the nervous system will help. And also, like I said, the nasal breathing, if they're breathing,

through the mouth at night, it's not gonna be a restful sleep.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (43:07.475)
Yeah. So there's a lot we can do during the day that could help us later at night. let's get into like these practical strategies. You said there's a 60 minute practice for the buteyko method. can you teach us a little bit like how to breathe and walk us through what we could do on a daily basis to really make these changes?

Amy Lichon (43:22.829)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Lichon (43:27.041)
Yep. So what I'm going to start off with is one, think that you it's very easy to do that controlled pause. Everybody can do that, which we just we did a little bit ago. And then I would say that, yep, yep. So the controlled pause would be where you take a breath in a breath out, you pinch your nose and you hold it. And you use your phone or whatever you've got to see how many seconds it is before your body is telling you

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (43:37.653)
and repeat that one more time.

Amy Lichon (43:55.839)
I need to breathe again.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (43:57.339)
So I have a follow up question. Should we be filling up our lungs with a deep breath before the exhale and then pause, or should we just be going about this naturally?

Amy Lichon (44:12.299)
Yep, so you want to just kind of be sitting quietly for a few minutes before you do it. And then with the Buteyko teaching, all the breath holds are on the exhale. And you would be starting this control pause after just your normal breathing. It's not like, I'm going to fill my lungs up and I'm going to hold it. Yeah, it's not like that.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (44:32.575)
Yeah.

Is Ziere just like, you like you take a deep breath before you go underwater? Yeah. Okay.

Amy Lichon (44:39.309)
Right, yeah, not like that. Yeah. Yeah, so just on your normal whole. The next thing that would be addressed for many people, I think it's like up to 40 % of kids, 30 % of adults will have like some kind of nasal stuffiness or rhinitis, certain times of year, allergic, environmental, or maybe stuff coming out of the sky, who knows, or fires.

causing nasal, they're like, well, I can't breathe out of my nose because it's stuffy. So one of the first things to address is opening up the nose, opening up the airway. And it's a very simple technique. Roger, I can take you through it. You can do it and kind of just show, but you're going to take a breath in and out and pinch your nose and hold it and nod your head up and down.

up and down. If you have a cervical neck issue, then you can sway back and forth and you're going to hold it and you're going to hold it and keep going and keep going and keep going and keep going until it's a very strong urge to breathe and then you relax.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (46:05.376)
Okay, I just stopped that a little bit early just so there's not too much pause.

Amy Lichon (46:07.405)
Yeah, that's good. Yeah, that's a long time. And what I should have said is, you know, you can check one nostril and then the other before you start that. commonly, if somebody does have a stuffy nose, you'll need to repeat that several bouts, maybe 10 times or whatever it takes. But I say it's like the your internal affrin, because what it what affrin does is it vasoconstricts and that's what helps you get unstuffy.

And this is what, this breath hold is causing a mini sympathetic vasoconstriction in the nose that will help decongest the nose. And so that's one of the first things that you need to do. Cause like I said, many people will be like, well, you know, I can't do butaco because I just can't breathe my nose. So we're to start with opening up the nose. One of the other,

like introductory, I would say breathing techniques is called a rescue breath. And this is really, really great for somebody who has a sensitive nervous system. So this would be used for somebody on the first onset of panic attack for somebody with anxiety, somebody who's having maybe a coughing fit or asthma. And this is a very, everybody can do this. It's just like a little bit of a mini reset and

what, Roger, if you want to demonstrate, what you're going to do is take a breath in and out and hold your breath. Pinch your nose, I'm sorry, pinch your nose and hold it for five, four, three, two, one, and relax.

Amy Lichon (47:58.785)
and then you take a few seconds and then we'll repeat that. You'll take a breath in and out and pinch your nose and hold it for five, four, three, two, one, and relax. And you'll do that several rounds. And again, it's very effective. Can you? Yeah. Yep.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (48:22.357)
I can feel the difference.

Amy Lichon (48:27.149)
So again, just those two things really empowering, you know? And then the other longer type of exercise, which is kind of the cornerstone of Buteyko is called breathe light. And that's where you're going to train your body to take in oxygen a little bit differently, where you're creating some air hunger.

Now you can also do this even when you're outside exercising, know, just nasal breathing for people exercising can be creating air hunger. So that in and of itself is a great training. But there's different ways that you can kind of work with the breathe light exercise. But again, the whole goal is to help help that chemo sensitivity in the brainstem get used to

a little higher CO2.

Amy Lichon (49:30.745)
And I think that I talk about having a download. One of the things that when I started doing the breathe light, because you do, you take in the breath, like a little bit longer and lighter. And you even say, that the fine hairs in your nose feel like they're hardly moving. And it came to me that how many times have you heard people say, take a deep breath? Like, like it's going to help relax you if you take a deep breath. And I'm like, I feel so like.

aggressive you know you're to take it and then with the butaco it really it's not a taking you're receiving getting back to that receptive mode so just in your mind if you could flip in your head that you're not taking the breath you're you're receiving and feel how different and how light and different that feels when you're receiving a breath versus taking it

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (50:12.247)
you

Amy Lichon (50:31.373)
Yeah, and don't know if you want to go through the longer, I mean, it doesn't have to take all that long, but we could do that if you want or.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (50:43.935)
Yeah, we can definitely talk through it. Let's just review quick. So there's the controlled breathing method that you control pause. Okay, so that's, know, first and foremost. Okay.

Amy Lichon (50:50.573)
the control pause.

Amy Lichon (50:56.481)
That's to kind of get a, I would say that's like checking your HRV or your heart rate, yeah.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (51:03.287)
Um, there was the opening up your, um, like your nasal passages, right? Um, through the constriction of the, um, of, I'm sorry, what's the word? You're the medical professional. then there was what I just did, um, you know, for people who want like a reset, right. And I worked with a lot of clients who have like post-traumatic stress.

Amy Lichon (51:08.962)
Mm-hmm.

Amy Lichon (51:18.054)
like vasoconstricting it like the afferent. Yeah, taking. Yeah.

Amy Lichon (51:28.417)
Mm-hmm.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (51:32.82)
And there could be extreme hypervigilance, reactivity, sensitivity to certain cues, especially like noises. And so that would be really important in my sessions just to teach my clients on how to do that reset. And you were talking about, you know, just various things that we can do to restrict the amount of oxygen to improve our like tolerance or sensitivity, performance, a number of things. So.

Amy Lichon (51:47.531)
Yep. Yep.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (52:01.672)
Really focusing on breathing through the nose. What are some you were talking about like a 60 minute daily practice with the buteyko method So you said there's a longer Training for breathing in addition to the things you just discussed

Amy Lichon (52:15.245)
Oh, so the the breathe light exercise, which is what we did in the workshop that day. Like I said, what that that is, is, you know, just bringing your awareness to the breath. And then we can use several different methods. You can put like your hand on your chest. You can just be monitoring it. You can put a finger on the nose. These are all ways that you can kind of monitor or cupping your face a little bit to kind of get the sensation of the breath.

And then what I would be doing is guiding you. It is a little bit meditative. I would be guiding you through restricting the breath on your own so that you're, building up a little bit more CO2. And it's, it's a little uncomfortable because one of our main drivers in our life is to breathe. And so when that CO2 starts to accumulate, it's just trying to work around what I call like a sweet spot.

between this feels kind of good because it's calming my nervous system, but yet it feels a little uncomfortable too because my body wants to breathe more. And so that's really, and that's a little bit more one-on-one really working, you know, that takes four minutes really to guide somebody into that. But that.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (53:34.04)
Do you wanna do a guided kind of work with that where the listeners can hear you speak? But a quick question. Okay, but a quick question. Spiritual practices and doing these techniques, is the restriction of the oxygen connected to, you know, like a spiritual practice where we may be like raising our vibration, connecting with

Amy Lichon (53:40.567)
Sure, yeah, I'm gonna grab awesome my dialogue for that, yeah.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (54:03.638)
God, you know, is this part of it?

Amy Lichon (54:07.157)
Yeah. And I kind of prefer not to say restricting oxygen, because again, we're actually oxygenating more, restricting the air. But I mean, it's semantics, right? Because that's how most people think of it. But it is working with the biochemistry of the body. And I do feel like there is that spiritual aspect. And I go back to the heart math, where you're feeling that connectedness.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (54:15.565)
Yes.

Amy Lichon (54:37.555)
in the body because it's coherent and there's clarity. to me that yeah, I think there's definitely segue into that through the breath.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (54:51.32)
Okay, I'll let you get what you need to get so we can do that for a minute.

Amy Lichon (54:54.549)
Yeah, it's just right here. Okay.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (55:07.074)
So this is something that you will talk the audience through that they can practice on their own.

Amy Lichon (55:11.339)
Yeah. Yeah.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (55:15.852)
And you would recommend this can be like a daily practice for people to do something like this.

Amy Lichon (55:19.829)
Yeah, yep, definitely. Okay.

All right, so.

For people in the car, maybe you can still do this, but obviously maybe not close your eyes. Okay, so place your hands on your chest and on your tummy. And then I'd like to sit up straight so as not to compress the diaphragm. And imagine that there's a piece of string pulling you upward from the top and the back of your head towards the ceiling. Lengthen the distance between your navel and your sternum.

and widen the distance between the ribs.

Pay attention to your breathing.

Amy Lichon (56:08.587)
I would like you to notice the slightly colder air coming into the nose and the slightly warmer air leaving the nose.

Amy Lichon (56:23.033)
Look down at your breathing. Can you see your breathing? Feel your breathing. Feel the slightly colder air as it enters the nostrils and feel the slightly warmer air as it leaves the nostrils.

Amy Lichon (56:43.605)
Really concentrate on the breath and use this as a measure of your concentration.

For how long can you hold your attention on your breathing before your mind wanders?

Amy Lichon (57:00.149)
If the mind is wandering a lot, you will get even more from this exercise. Keep bringing your attention back to your breathing. Feel the slightly colder air entering your nostrils and feel the slightly warmer air leaving.

Amy Lichon (57:21.289)
Now I would like you to slow down the speed of air as it enters your nostrils. Breathe so gently that hardly any air enters the nose.

Amy Lichon (57:37.569)
Breathe so soft that the fine hairs within the nose do not move.

Amy Lichon (57:45.431)
Take a slow, light breath in through your nose. And as you breathe out, bring a feeling of relaxation throughout your body.

Amy Lichon (57:59.165)
After you breathe out, wait until you feel the need to take a breath in again.

Amy Lichon (58:09.217)
Then take a soft, slow, gentle breath in.

Amy Lichon (58:15.839)
At the top of the breath, allow a relaxed, slow, gentle breath out. I would like you to really concentrate on slowing down your breathing so that you are taking less air into the body. Don't hold your breath or interfere with your breathing muscles. Instead, soften your breathing so that the amount of air you're taking into your body is less than it was before you started.

Amy Lichon (58:46.593)
The goal is to create a feeling that you'd like to take in more air, to feel an air hunger. To create an air hunger, your breathing now should be less than it was before we started.

Amy Lichon (59:03.637)
I want you to feel that need for air, a feeling that you would like to take in a deeper breath.

Amy Lichon (59:12.971)
I'd like you to feel slightly oxygen deprived. If your breathing muscles contract or they start to feel tense, then the air hunger is too strong. And when that happens, just take a rest for 15 seconds and start again.

It's normal at the beginning to take a rest a few times during the exercise. With practice, it'll become easier to sustain this air hunger for longer.

Just keep softening the breath and feeling that sweet spot of air hunger.

Amy Lichon (59:53.931)
And then you would just kind of continue that for a few more, few more minutes is the goal.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:00:01.486)
Yeah, it's challenging. Because, yeah, you really want to breathe. almost like there's moments of heat. Yeah, like you're feeling like you're going to suffocate or something. Like there's that sensation.

Amy Lichon (01:00:03.305)
It is feels weird. You do. It's primal. Yeah, it's totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that like what I'll do just just as like a tip going like when I have like a 45 minute drive to work and in the car, what I'll do is even there's another method just plugging just using one nostril to breathe and restricting the airflow.

that's easy to do when you're driving. And just doing that, you know, and you can look at the clock and just be like, okay, I'm going to just have four minutes of exposing myself to that feeling. And like I said, with practice, can kind of like, I just get it. And I know that I'm like, I'm just working with that biochemistry of my body to help optimize, you know, my daily breathing.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:00:57.613)
Yeah. and with, yeah, you know, like one of the things that I've just learned in my profession is just small actionable steps, towards like health optimization, little things that you build into your daily practice have, can have some like profound positive outcomes, you know, like choosing meditation, doing some of this breath work, gratitude, work.

Amy Lichon (01:00:59.287)
Simple, it's simple.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:01:26.189)
you I don't even want to say it's work, just like a daily gratitude practice, right? And of course, you know, exercise and food that you're putting in your body and just exposing yourself to light and sun. Like these small, actionable steps like have such meaningful, positive health outcomes, and they're simple to bring into your life as a habit.

Amy Lichon (01:01:28.481)
Yeah. Yeah.

Amy Lichon (01:01:35.787)
Yeah, exactly.

Amy Lichon (01:01:43.027)
I know. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And like even like you can combine them, right? Because I feel like when I do this too, naturally, I start feeling like a heart opening sometimes, or feeling more gratitude and appreciation. And I do feel like, like those small things, they help you, they do help you make better choices for other things. You know, and I agree, I think it doesn't have to be hard, but you can

you can work them in and they have the big effect overall.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:02:17.006)
Yeah, I mean, this was great today. I'm so grateful for, you know, your work and your willingness to come on and kind of go through these practices. Before we conclude, I just want to learn, you know, a little bit more about this company that you started outside of your work in anesthesia. Kind of what the early returns have been like, how's this going? And what kind of response are you getting from people who are engaging in this practice? What type of

Amy Lichon (01:02:32.429)
Mm-hmm.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:02:46.33)
you know, presenting problem or, or clients are, are really seeking out your services with good, strong outcomes. If you can just kind of update us on all of that.

Amy Lichon (01:02:56.493)
Yeah, well, so far my biggest referral base has been my acupuncturist has these many dysfunctional people with autonomic nervous systems. And then the other one is I have there's a holistic dental hygienist in town. We did not even touch. That's a whole nother thing is dental implications in your breathing. It's massive. But yeah, she's referred many people, which is great.

I'll just say one small thing about the connection of the breath work and teeth and not just teeth, but dental health. had, Patrick McCown had on his podcast, this dentist that I listened to recently. And he said that the most effective thing that you can do for your dental health is breathing correctly, breathing through your nose more so than brushing your teeth.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:03:56.474)
Mm.

Amy Lichon (01:03:58.253)
I thought that was like, I'm like, wow. it's true. I mouth breathing's terrible for a lot of reasons on your dental health. But yeah, I've had a lot of just some sleep apnea, a patient that was having cardiac afib ablation and he wanted to maximize the health of his heart and was looking for breath retraining. I would love to get

into working with more children because I think that, like I said, what I've seen a lot of is these tonsillectomies, adenoidectomy, attention deficit disorder kids who I guarantee they've had, their breath is not being addressed at all. And if you can get somebody at that younger age, you know, how much you could impact them for the rest of their life would be amazing. So.

But so far, yeah, the people that I've worked with have definitely had very quick results. You know, within a matter of a couple of weeks, things are usually start turning around. Again, I'm not sure how many, you know, pharmacological interventions can say that without having side effects. So that's profound. But yeah, the other things that I'm doing, I work with a company called LifeWave. It's a system.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:05:13.626)
Yeah.

Amy Lichon (01:05:24.293)
of phototherapy. It's wearable technology. Again, there's no pharmacology in it. It's all frequency based using your own body's light. So the infrared heat that our body emits will reflect onto the patch. And then the patch reflects a signal into the body. And very much like the sun when it hits the skin creates a reaction in the body that makes vitamin D. It works on the same mechanism.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:05:52.292)
Fascinating.

Amy Lichon (01:05:52.565)
This particular patch will activate stem cells, which stem cells are responsible for making us. They're also responsible for regenerating tissues that, you know, need need help. So again, just really anything natural is piquing my interest. And then thirdly, the other aspect of the company that I created is a natural deodorant that

I started using 10 years ago and started giving out to some people. And at the time there was like the crystal that didn't work well and not many other options. So I started selling that and I'm still kind of working on, I started rebranding that a little bit. And I can see that that's, you know, it's a market that is getting more penetrated. would see people see the more

need for less toxic things on our body and wanting that more. And yeah, I started doing that a while ago and just kind of have weaved that into all the other things that I'm doing.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:07:02.543)
Right. And what's the name of your company?

Amy Lichon (01:07:04.371)
It's called Kourami, C-O-U-R-A-M-I. It's a made up word. The C-O-U-R stands for courage. And the A-M-I is the root word is love. So it's this made up word of courage and love. Yeah.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:07:20.461)
it. We'll include all that in the show notes. Anything final before we conclude?

Amy Lichon (01:07:27.629)
Breathe through your nose. That is my last like just, you know, pay attention. Think about it as just like you would you're taking your blood pressure, getting your blood sugar checked. know, breathing is the same thing. It's just highly been unrecognized and the implications are massive. And yeah, if anybody would like to work with me, they can email me.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:07:30.691)
Yeah.

Amy Lichon (01:07:56.141)
It's just hello at kura me.com or go to my website, which is kura me.com and there's a place there that you can contact me. Would love to work with anybody that would like to explore this further.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:08:12.613)
Thank you very much. Dr. Amy LaShawn, I want to thank you for a radically genuine conversation.

Amy Lichon (01:08:18.423)
Thank you so much, Roger.