Radically Genuine Podcast with Dr. Roger McFillin

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Ralph Lucchese
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Jun 9, 2025, 2:55 PM (9 days ago)
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Rober Sullivan's episode transcript can be found HERE

Potential Titles:
1. Vaccines, Censorship, and the Collapse of Informed Consent with Dr. Robert Sullivan
2. The Death of Scientific Integrity and the Rise of Collective Delusion with Dr. Robert Sullivan
3. Selling Truth for Profits and Calling It Medicine with Dr. Robert Sullivan

Ralph Lucchese
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P: (610) 737-9173
559 Main Street, 219, Bethlehem PA, 18018
www.podcastroom.co

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00:00:00:16 - 00:00:07:03
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I'm interested in your background. How you got here? Well, let me ask you this. How did you get into this?

00:00:07:05 - 00:00:31:02
ROGER MCFILLIN
Yeah. It's interesting. Covid was a transformative period for me. Up to that time, I was doing research on psychiatric drug efficacy harms of psychiatric drugs, specifically antidepressants. I was going to create a position statement, which I eventually did for antidepressants, because we just saw so many people on them, haphazardly prescribed.

00:00:31:08 - 00:00:34:13
ROBERT SULLIVAN
When did you start noticing that?

00:00:34:15 - 00:01:01:03
ROGER MCFILLIN
My entire career. I mean, I can go back to probably 2000, when I was working in Children's Psychiatric Hospital. I saw what they were doing to young kids who were traumatized. So I was going through all my training. I always took, you know, a very critical eye, but it just started to expand dramatically post 2010 and then approaching 2020, you know, dramatic increases pushed by primary care.

00:01:01:05 - 00:01:16:23
ROGER MCFILLIN
And then by the time the pandemic hit, of course, everybody got an antidepressant. And so I was studying how the drugs came to market the trials, talk to experts around the world. And I knew I had to start a podcast. So that's kind of.

00:01:17:00 - 00:01:18:05
ROBERT SULLIVAN
How leaped into that.

00:01:18:05 - 00:01:51:12
ROGER MCFILLIN
That's how radically genuine got started. And it's interesting. My path, my journey right now takes me into all different areas. It's not only psychiatric drug harm and mental health, but it's really how it's been so institutionalized for, you know, for corporate purposes. And it's no longer really about science anymore. It's actually it's a distorted version of science. And so, interested also in how medical professionals are trained because I've sat down with so many of them to say, hey, what you're doing is harmful.

00:01:51:12 - 00:02:13:02
ROGER MCFILLIN
It there isn't safety there. There is no efficacy to support what you're doing. I see the eyes get glossed over and I see them all repeating the same messages, which got me in a direction to say, all right, how did we get here? How are we blindly just accepting the medical authority? The Covid vaccine was a whole nother deep dive for me.

00:02:13:02 - 00:02:39:18
ROGER MCFILLIN
And it just aligned well with what I knew about the psychiatric medical establishment and how we've, really, we've medicalized all aspects of our culture to push drugs and diagnoses and overwhelming there's harm. And, you know, every available statistic will demonstrate that our mental and physical well-being is on the dramatic decline, over the course of decades. And so it's a wake up.

00:02:39:20 - 00:02:40:13
ROBERT SULLIVAN
But also there.

00:02:40:15 - 00:02:49:07
ROGER MCFILLIN
And so what, you reached out, to me after I put an article out there, I think it was on my Substack, but then it got posted on the brownstone.

00:02:49:08 - 00:02:49:20
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Yeah.

00:02:49:22 - 00:02:59:05
ROGER MCFILLIN
And that was really about how did your pediatrician and primary care doc become a drug and vaccine enforcement agent?

00:02:59:07 - 00:03:32:03
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And that was right. In the aftermath, I had done two lectures at Georgetown University, which were received very differently. Basically same lecture. One was to the lectures titled Psychopathy novel, virus novel, therapeutic novel complications. And I was speaking to first a group of college graduates that were interested in going into medical school. Some are going to go into, pharmaceutical research.

00:03:32:08 - 00:04:03:15
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And they were master's students at the, Pointer Hypertension lab, with doctors associate at Georgetown University in Washington, DC, and that they seemed very curious. They were a little skeptical. But I could see that they were critical thinkers. We had a good conversation, I think, and maybe I swayed some people. And I start this lecture by saying, I have, I have a mental disorder where I believe I just present enough facts and the right order that I'll change minds.

00:04:03:15 - 00:04:24:10
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And I have this false six belief, this, delusion that I can do that. But it seemed to work for this one. So I came back two weeks later, and I spoke to a group of, rising fourth year medical students who had specifically picked a, seminar on probably the most boring topic in medicine, which is pulmonary hypertension.

00:04:24:10 - 00:04:45:24
ROBERT SULLIVAN
It's one of most obscure. It's easier to explain now, but it's sort of an oddity. But the professor there, Your chair. Suzuki, is, a world authority in basic science research with this, disease process. And so they had chosen to do a seminar with him, and he invited me to speak, both as a practicing physician.

00:04:46:01 - 00:05:09:07
ROBERT SULLIVAN
He thought I'd have some insight there. And as a patient with this and, I tried to tailor more to the the students saying, this is I was in your shoes once. And, you know, this is what it's like to be a doctor and some things I learned through mechanical career, so I, I, I had that same.

00:05:09:09 - 00:05:34:24
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Glassy eyed, sort of shellshocked, look. And I was I was surprised I misread the room. I was perhaps too radical and perhaps too general genuine or some combination thereof. But I started the lecture by saying, when I was in that position in my training, and I've been a physician almost 30 years, that at least 80% of patients trusted us.

00:05:35:01 - 00:06:05:02
ROBERT SULLIVAN
That ratio was probably flipped. It's under 40%, maybe under 20%. And I said, well, a big reason why is a lot of what we're doing isn't working. Patients are sicker, people live less. And the mistakes we made with the, response to Covid are a big part of that. They've lost trust. And one of the important parts of my training, maybe one of three, like the most important parts, were I had some fantastic physician mentors.

00:06:05:04 - 00:06:33:00
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And the lesson was you have to learn to mature. And if you if you can't, you can't correct mistakes. And I had some really, really, phenomenally trained or just phenomenal professors who were, pioneers in anesthesia who could make a mistake and laugh, and they would lead by example and they would catch small mistakes before they became big, big mistakes.

00:06:33:00 - 00:06:50:04
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And it was imperfect. There was still a culture of safety. So I was trying to relay that to the students and saying, my experience has been, if it's if you're a physician and you made a mistake. Usually patients are very understanding and forgiving. And so unless.

00:06:50:04 - 00:06:54:17
ROGER MCFILLIN
They're dead, unless they're dead, those are those are larger, big mistakes, right?

00:06:54:22 - 00:06:55:08
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Mistakes.

00:06:55:08 - 00:06:57:16
ROGER MCFILLIN
And the public has a hard time forgiving.

00:06:57:16 - 00:07:13:19
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Absolutely. But you want to correct that before you get there. And so I try to have a very positive message and say, look, what's changed in my career. We and we were training as young doctors and we were explicitly told, hey, you don't have feelings. And we would just sort of nod like, yeah, that sounds right.

00:07:13:21 - 00:07:14:19
ROGER MCFILLIN
Like you're robots.

00:07:14:22 - 00:07:38:01
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think it would shock. I understand you have an international audience and it's probably hard to convey that medical school training would be very rare, that I'd have a work week that would be less than 80 hours. It was usually 100. And there's I told the students, like, well, you have to study, is this human life as if someone's life depends on it?

00:07:38:01 - 00:07:59:19
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Because it does. You should train very hard, but we don't want to do it so much that you lose your, humanity. You lose your empathy, which will happen in some of the in the training that you really want allow, space to care for yourself. Because if, if, if you lose yourself, you're not going to be an effective physician.

00:07:59:21 - 00:08:30:03
ROGER MCFILLIN
Yeah. Let me ask you a question about that, about losing your humanity. Depending, I guess, on your on your specialty in the type of work that you're doing day to day, you almost have to become somewhat desensitized, I would imagine, because of what you're facing. I mean, you're facing life and death situations. You're you're experiencing the the heartache of people being provided terminal diagnosis and, death in emergency rooms, having to talk to families.

00:08:30:03 - 00:08:48:17
ROGER MCFILLIN
I've always imagined, like, how does a medical professional then learn how to cope and and readapt and adjust back into their civilian life, for the lack of a better word, having to be exposed to that level of trauma on such a consistent basis.

00:08:48:19 - 00:08:53:14
ROBERT SULLIVAN
That is an outstanding question.

00:08:53:16 - 00:09:20:14
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I knew I was in trouble in training when I had, a patient had a complication. They were learning stenting technology, and they had, put a coronary stent in, and it had caused bleeding around the heart and it caused a pericardial. Tampa. Not. And so I was called to this patient's room, and I put my stethoscope on, and I heard the last heartbeat, which is very confusing thing because for a minute that you think you is a stethoscope broken, why don't I hear another heartbeat?

00:09:20:14 - 00:09:39:02
ROBERT SULLIVAN
So I caught the last heartbeat and there was a code we tried to resuscitate and, there was a fatality. And I knew I'd hit rock bottom there because, it didn't hit me at all. And I only cried later after that when I realized just how much it didn't affect me.

00:09:39:04 - 00:09:39:23
ROGER MCFILLIN

00:09:40:00 - 00:10:02:14
ROBERT SULLIVAN
So there is a process of recovery. The, when I finally got out of residency. So there is this author, Malcolm Gladwell, and I think he said it took about 10,000 hours to come to expert in something. Well, except in medicine. So for anesthesia, I ate it up. It's well over 30,000 hours for something like neurosurgery. You're well into the 40 thousands of hours.

00:10:02:14 - 00:10:04:16
ROBERT SULLIVAN
It is an incredible amount of training.

00:10:04:18 - 00:10:44:16
ROGER MCFILLIN
Let me, let me let me challenge that for a second, because I've thought deeply about this. Because we are we're subjected to whatever the training is at that particular time. So the longer you work under a certain paradigm, whether that paradigm is true or false, you'll become an expert in it. But if you're working in a certain specialty or, or under a paradigm that ultimately has shown to either create harm or is part of a general construct that is missing so much information, it's a flawed system, then essentially you become an expert on the wrong things, right?

00:10:44:16 - 00:11:11:19
ROGER MCFILLIN
So it's not just about hours that are put in. It's it's about truth. And that's what science process has always been about. It's the search for for truth. And this is the question I have for someone who is trained as a, as a physician is my experience is that physicians have a hard time saying, I don't know, yes, that they're almost taught to have to be the expert, to inspire trust with your with your patient, because that's a major factor, right?

00:11:11:19 - 00:11:36:03
ROGER MCFILLIN
To get adherence to medical advice like we've heard that word adherence to medical advice, like you have to follow a rule. I believe ultimately that's led to, us moving further away from the scientific process and informed consent. But what is the experience of, of a medical student who is taught that this is the best available evidence and then the confidence level that they're supposed to display?

00:11:36:03 - 00:11:59:10
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Well, it's changed. And so I mentor a, a medical student, who’s almost graduated now, and maybe he ran towards me more because he it's changed so much since I trained. So critical thinking used to be the value and the, they used to say, half of what we teach you will turn out not to be true, but it wasn't because there was a corruption in the journals.

00:11:59:10 - 00:12:19:14
ROBERT SULLIVAN
It's just because you're going to find more, evidence. And I think the training part of it was, you know, we can talk about, valid suffering versus invalid suffering and in this kind of training, but there is some value in seeing a lot of medicine and doing a lot of cases. So my specific I'm lucky I get to be an anesthesiologist.

00:12:19:14 - 00:12:50:22
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And that pleases me a little bit outside the system so I can see it from a different vantage point. So my job is to, get people through surgeries by inducing reversible comas or using regional anesthesia to render parts of the body, insensate. So I relieve nonproductive suffering, where your job in many ways is to help people through legitimate, productive suffering.

00:12:50:24 - 00:13:15:10
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And it's interesting that we've met in the middle here and we see the same things. So the other thing with anesthesiology is you get to be a specialist, but you cover everything from premature babies to, elderly people or even people getting procedures for palliative care and everything in between. Inpatient, outpatient, our training involves a lot of intensive care unit training.

00:13:15:12 - 00:13:36:08
ROBERT SULLIVAN
We take care of often the sickest patients in the hospital, and then we, the owners of physiology, during surgery and the interaction with my anesthetics. So I don't have that same level of having to follow guidelines for Doctor Nation that you might see today in some of the schools. And so it gives me a unique perspective.

00:13:36:08 - 00:13:54:16
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And it's also we'll get to it later is why why would anyone see you just see the problems that I see, and I think you alluded to it in your Brownson article, is that there's an admission or some subspecialties are so separated now that it's hard for doctors to put the whole together. Yeah. And I'm always dealing with a complete system.

00:13:54:21 - 00:14:06:14
ROGER MCFILLIN
So yeah. Let me ask some questions about that because, always curious about the thought process of someone who chose to get the mRNA Covid vaccine, which you did, which is going to kind of kick off our story.

00:14:06:14 - 00:14:11:10
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And I do want to get back. I'll get to how do you heal from the trauma of medicine? I haven't forgotten that. We'll get.

00:14:11:10 - 00:14:26:22
ROGER MCFILLIN
That. Yeah, we'll get to that. This might actually walk us through that. I believe approximately 80% of Americans got at least one dose of the mRNA. Yeah. So there's about 20, 20% who did not I in that camp? I did not none of my family members did.

00:14:27:01 - 00:14:37:16
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I'm I'm I'm happy to hear that. It took guts. Yeah, I guess I guess what was. So how did you how did you manage to avoid it. What was your thought process?

00:14:37:18 - 00:15:05:05
ROGER MCFILLIN
Okay, so I was scared in the beginning. Like anybody else. I think when March hit, we didn't know really anything. And then the, the authorities, the health authorities kind of shut down the world. So of course, there was this sense of uncertainty and anxiety, but I think that was quickly replaced with some very clear data. First of all, most people who are going to obtain Covid are going to be infected with Covid, are going to experience minimum symptoms.

00:15:05:07 - 00:15:24:18
ROGER MCFILLIN
And of course, your life is not threatened at all. Right? So if you have a if you're relatively young, you're healthy, you're not on multiple drugs, you don't have comorbidities, you're not obese. I mean, it's like I mean, it's less dangerous than the common flu that you would get in any other time. So that data was really, really important to me.

00:15:24:18 - 00:15:49:06
ROGER MCFILLIN
So okay, the question is why would I do this instead of obtaining just natural immunity, exposure to it? And I quickly came to the conclusion it's better to get exposed to it. Then the second thing was, all right, they're asking us to be injected with a novel technology. So even if I believed in the original premise of vaccine science.

00:15:49:08 - 00:16:11:11
ROGER MCFILLIN
Right. Let's say I didn't know anything about the adjuvants. I didn't know anything about the harms. I didn't know anything about how a vaccine came to market and how they're evaluated. I was just conditioned into American society that vaccines themselves are a medical miracle and they save lives. I would have still ask the question, well, this isn't the typical what we call vaccine.

00:16:11:11 - 00:16:14:05
ROGER MCFILLIN
This is more representative of the gene therapy.

00:16:14:07 - 00:16:33:00
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Oh, precisely. I mean, there's nothing vaccine about it. When I talk to the when I give my talk, I'll draw a, a clear line that this this is a mRNA therapeutic. It's not a vaccine by any traditional means. And the way I presented to the students is I'll just say, well, who here in the room has had a polio vaccine?

00:16:33:00 - 00:16:56:00
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Every hand goes up. And who has had polio? No hands go up. Not that there could be some problems with the vaccine there, but it's rare. Who in the room is anyone managed to avoid the mRNA spike product and no one has. Every hand goes up because it was mandated for them. For the medical schools, it would be really rare to have, anyone in medical practice.

00:16:56:00 - 00:17:14:11
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I know of one person that managed to avoid it, but it's it's rare amongst all of us. Were exposed to this. And then you ask, well, who who has had Covid after that? Every hand goes up. Yeah. And then I ask, who is here? Has had some lingering problems from this, especially shortness of breath, doing things and use.

00:17:14:11 - 00:17:36:06
ROBERT SULLIVAN
About a third of the hands go up. So you were correct. This was nothing. And so my thought process was anesthesiologist had a very healthy respect for Covid because we were managing airways during this. And I think a lot of the intensity of the illness you would get with Covid had a direct relation to how much viral load you were exposed to.

00:17:36:12 - 00:17:57:02
ROBERT SULLIVAN
So if you have a sick person and we're intubating, you can you can get along full of Covid and get very sick. And with SARS one, the first two deaths in North America were in colleges in Toronto that took care of the patient. So we had a, I think, a healthy fear of it. And we, with limited resources, did the best we can taking precautions.

00:17:57:04 - 00:18:24:05
ROBERT SULLIVAN
So my hospital so, at the time I was working in Frederick, Maryland, down the street from Fort Detrick. Not affiliated with it at all. But, you know, it's another interesting coincidence in this whole line of improbable events, the, O.R. had and most everybody there probably had Covid very early on 2020. And but then the M&A product comes out and we realized we're taking a leap of faith.

00:18:24:05 - 00:18:41:19
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Now, I probably researched it way more than most physicians. So I had already known at that point that it didn't stay in the arm, that it did distribute throughout the body. And I it's really surprising I found that out and I knew had been trialed twice, I think with Zika and, rabies virus and had failed. So this was a tremendous leap of faith.

00:18:41:19 - 00:19:04:00
ROBERT SULLIVAN
But where I live is a night of, National Institutes of Health. There are research scientists, with FDA and scientists at Fort Detrick, I mean, world authorities on this. And so this was a leap of faith that, that this product was going to help.

00:19:04:02 - 00:19:33:15
ROGER MCFILLIN
So the willingness to take that risk, so going back to other reasons why I made the decision where other members in my extended family at that time did take the Covid vaccine and thought I was being, reckless. But not by by not taking it, which was always fascinating to me because and this is, you know, coworkers or friends is because people knew nothing about it.

00:19:33:19 - 00:19:57:01
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Right. Well, this this is a new product. You are the factory for the for the for the protein. Now when I see now know more about what went into this, it's, it's just stunning that this was, ruled out the I mean, at the time, we realized we were part of a big medical sphere and probably the biggest in the history of the world.

00:19:57:03 - 00:19:58:09
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And it went badly.

00:19:58:11 - 00:20:00:06
ROGER MCFILLIN
Yeah. And that's the best version.

00:20:00:09 - 00:20:01:01
ROBERT SULLIVAN
That is the best version.

00:20:01:02 - 00:20:14:11
ROGER MCFILLIN
The best version is that it was, experimental. And people are doing the best they can. And, we're trying to prevent, disease, and we're trying to advance medical science. And, you know, I don't believe that narrative.

00:20:14:11 - 00:20:20:22
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Yeah, I have no researching this in detail. I try to come up with an innocent explanation, and I cannot.

00:20:20:24 - 00:20:37:00
ROGER MCFILLIN
Yeah. And that's part of the the narrative. I think you'd have to continue to adhere to. Like, if you've been in the system and you've been taught in the system and you have what I what's called authority biases, which is the reason why I 80% of my.

00:20:37:02 - 00:20:39:04
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Authority biases, I don't understand that.

00:20:39:07 - 00:20:59:21
ROGER MCFILLIN
Yeah. Authority bias is a, it's a cognitive bias and attentional bias where if someone is in a position of power or authority, like they're called an expert, they wear a white coat, you're less likely in any way to challenge any of their beliefs. You're going to adhere to what they tell you to do, assuming they know more than you.

00:20:59:23 - 00:21:20:09
ROGER MCFILLIN
It's a handing over autonomy and trust to someone who's in a position of power, and it's part of a psychological operations and brainwashing mechanisms that are used in CIA operatives around the world. What we know now, propaganda in our own country is that they can push that on us. And that's what stood out to me as a psychologist right away.

00:21:20:12 - 00:21:21:17
ROBERT SULLIVAN
So that was the red flag for you?

00:21:21:22 - 00:21:43:11
ROGER MCFILLIN
Well, I knew it was bullshit when they started to use those operations. Right? When they started to put people, anyone who was challenging it, which even they were like epidemiol epidemiologists like Jay by the Korea, for example, or Robert Malone, one of the original patent holders of mRNA technology. They start saying like, hold the horse, hold our horses here, let's evaluate this.

00:21:43:11 - 00:22:04:23
ROGER MCFILLIN
Here are the problems, here are concerns. Here's the data. Here's why we shouldn't do it. And then what happens? They're discredited, you know, immediately. Like their profiles are taken down and changed on Wikipedia. Like you, you see the evidence of the entire mass agenda and propaganda on the American people. And most of the people I was coming in contact with just said, well, what are you talking about?

00:22:04:23 - 00:22:36:07
ROGER MCFILLIN
To vaccines. And they've been safe for centuries. They didn't even know it was mRNA technology because they used the word vaccine. You know, so that's the sad thing about human beings is in times of stress, you can induce a degree of stress. They're more vulnerable to the authority bias. They're more vulnerable to being controlled. And then you saw it because there was, you needed to be in the camp of safe and effective.

00:22:36:07 - 00:23:01:18
ROGER MCFILLIN
You needed to be in the camp of science, and you split people up into two camps against each other. It's the conspiracy theorists. It's the anti-vaxxers. It's those who are anti-science. And then it becomes virtue signaling. Signaling, you see, in the social media profiles is you have like vaccine needles, you know, in your profile. So that's the psychological mechanism that was really at play here.

00:23:01:18 - 00:23:07:20
ROGER MCFILLIN
And thank goodness for the rise of podcasts during that period time, because you got to hear from alternative experts.

00:23:07:20 - 00:23:14:22
ROBERT SULLIVAN
You must have been later. When did you when were you facing that pressure? That was probably March. April 2020 was a little 2021.

00:23:15:03 - 00:23:39:15
ROGER MCFILLIN
Yeah, it's actually it was actually later because if you recall, the vaccine didn't come out until late 2020 into 2021. So I wouldn't even have been eligible for the vaccine until, I believe, spring of 2021. Yes. Yeah. So I mean, you're getting the pressure then, right? At this point, I've already I guess I had Covid, right. I had the symptoms of Covid, I tested positive.

00:23:39:15 - 00:23:52:09
ROGER MCFILLIN
There's all, you know, there's problems with that. But I recovered very, very quickly. So, you know, I would have had a, you know, a natural immunity. And so the idea that I should go get a novel vaccination was absurd.

00:23:52:11 - 00:24:03:06
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Well, what's sad is. This won't make you happier. So we were so early. So my first shot was in that December, 2020, the very first.

00:24:03:06 - 00:24:04:09
ROGER MCFILLIN
As a health care professional.

00:24:04:09 - 00:24:27:12
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Right. Which we again, we realized were test pilots and it and we even talking with a friend before this, nurseries and said, boy, I hope this isn't like the swine flu vaccine where or people are harmed. And if only it were. That's it. The and the medical people got hit hard. Setting for some of the complications are traced back to four batches or to 4% of the batches.

00:24:27:12 - 00:24:49:21
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And I had two of the really the notorious batches. So this took a big toll on, health care people. And I'm not sure if there's a quality control problem or something in those early batches, but it seems the earlier you've got the mini product, the worse you fared. And I mean, I was just hopelessly naive. So I, got the first shot in December.

00:24:49:23 - 00:25:11:24
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I had, the month before just on the photo shoot for the Wall Street Journal. What's your workout column? So that's the the Aerial circus arts, which is a less embarrassing way of seeing your old dance. So the point of that is that I was in really good physical shape to be able to do that. You have to be very, very top shape.

00:25:12:00 - 00:25:14:08
ROGER MCFILLIN
And how old were you when you got the vaccine?

00:25:14:10 - 00:25:18:16
ROBERT SULLIVAN
49. Well, I'm 54 now. Yeah. So is 49.

00:25:18:17 - 00:25:20:02
ROGER MCFILLIN
So you weren't even 50 years old.

00:25:20:06 - 00:25:20:14
ROBERT SULLIVAN
50.

00:25:20:16 - 00:25:26:01
ROGER MCFILLIN
You're in top level condition. You're not cancer, no comorbidities, no other risk factors. Okay.

00:25:26:02 - 00:25:45:18
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Yeah. So the, I get that second shot in January and then about three weeks after that, early February, almost overnight I fell ill and I just couldn't even walk upstairs without getting short of breath. We would not have been able to have this interview four years ago, because I couldn't speak without having to take extra breaths.

00:25:45:20 - 00:26:08:17
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Minnesotans. It. I cannot exaggerate how sick I was, and I grew up as a kid with asthma. Bad asthma was in hospital a lot. And so I know what suffocation is, and I've suffered a lot and this was worse. And, for anyone out there that has been through this, I know what you have been through.

00:26:08:19 - 00:26:10:06
ROGER MCFILLIN
And this is a vaccine injury.

00:26:10:08 - 00:26:11:06
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Absolutely.

00:26:11:08 - 00:26:18:03
ROGER MCFILLIN
So how did your colleagues, respond to this claim that you're injured by the vaccine?

00:26:18:03 - 00:26:43:07
ROBERT SULLIVAN
So the this is so I knew something was dreadfully wrong. And, and I was able to get diagnosis very quickly because I know the system. And I first thought I was like, well, I must have I probably have some myocarditis. So there's an element of, cardiomyopathy with this. I just have heart failure because I was trying to do a warm up on a treadmill.

00:26:43:07 - 00:27:02:13
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I just fell off. And the feeling you get, there's a syndrome I recognize now with this, which is, you get short of breath doing things. If you go out, or exert yourself, you'll feel this right chest. It's hard to describe. It's like a pressure. It's very uncomfortable. And you simply cannot push through it.

00:27:02:15 - 00:27:26:21
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Like you feel like you're dying because you are. You have to stop. So I was able to get diagnosed with probably within a week of this. And so, what I did was, I had an echocardiogram, and I was looking. My training involves, how are you? Vascular anesthesia. So I have the special certification echocardiography. So I'm looking at the study and I can see the left heart's pumping fine.

00:27:26:21 - 00:27:41:14
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And I'm thinking, oh, that's very good. But I guess I guess this is all on my head like this. I don't know what's wrong with me. And it's really hard not having a diagnosis or for anyone out there that's been struggling with this and not have a diagnosis, I truly know how hard that is.

00:27:41:16 - 00:27:44:12
ROGER MCFILLIN
How do you come to the conclusion that it's all in your head?

00:27:44:14 - 00:28:05:18
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Oh, that this was corrected very quickly. So then, as the study goes on, I hear this characteristic woosh of a heart valve. And so there's a way of measuring pulmonary pressures by, blood flow through the tricuspid valve in the right heart. And I heard this. Woosh. And I immediately knew that that was a fatal problem. So I have, bordering hypertension.

00:28:05:18 - 00:28:31:18
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And so I have high pressure and, in the lungs, which makes it hard for my right heart to pump blood through. And I have restricted flow through blood flow through the lungs. And that does not translate to people. So when they hear hypertension, they think it's like a normal, arterial hypertension that you just take medicines, permanent hypertension typically it's usually takes about two years to diagnosis because a lot of doctors will never see it in their training.

00:28:31:20 - 00:28:56:17
ROBERT SULLIVAN
It's had been very rare. One out of a million, maybe one out of 100,000, typically progressive, life expectancy 3 to 5, maybe seven years, depending on things. No treatment, incurable. And so, like if this diagnosis in my hospital and that was life changing.

00:28:56:19 - 00:28:58:08
ROGER MCFILLIN
Did you report this to others? Sure.

00:28:58:13 - 00:28:59:13
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Yeah. Immediately.

00:28:59:15 - 00:29:01:06
ROGER MCFILLIN
What do you know? What do you know about the their system?

00:29:01:06 - 00:29:25:23
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I knew nothing, they didn't teach in medical school. And I asked the students recently if they're if they're teaching that now. And they had not heard of it either. So I don't think this is widely taught in schools. So for people listening, there's is the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting system. So it's the United States based, surveillance system for, for various events related to vaccines and it is, difficult to report.

00:29:25:23 - 00:29:47:13
ROBERT SULLIVAN
It's it's a, clunky system. Even knowing medical terms and having the information in front of you, you tend to get timed out. But I was so naive, I thought, I'm gonna report this, and and actually, to their credit, the VA's, people got got my records and the cardiologist and I waited, and I thought I'd talk to a person, and I never did.

00:29:47:15 - 00:30:07:01
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And then, later, I collaborated with, Peter Doshi, who's, faculty, University of Maryland in it, editor for the British Medical Journal. And we have an article on the their system. And another incredible coincidence. I knew the head of theirs. I did not know that was his job at this time, that, our kids went to school together.

00:30:07:01 - 00:30:14:16
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And so, Yeah, another amazing coincidence in this whole misadventure.

00:30:14:18 - 00:30:21:20
ROGER MCFILLIN
So you ended up kind of just researching what was happening to you. Yeah. And you connected with Doctor Suzuki eventually.

00:30:21:20 - 00:30:40:01
ROBERT SULLIVAN
So. So my cardiologist, it's it's interesting how the how doctors respond. And the answer is they didn't know what to do. And, I remember thinking I was like, this has got to be due to the vaccine because what was this is not a normal thing. The only prior way you'd ever have an acute onset of hypertension is blood clots to the lungs.

00:30:40:01 - 00:31:01:09
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And we, using the best techniques we had, couldn't detect that I had any blood clots or former employee. So this is so strange and so other complications that people are suffering after this. You can say, well, that complication existed. Before we you know, it's it may be due to this, but it wasn't like something that had never been reported in medicine before.

00:31:01:11 - 00:31:23:17
ROBERT SULLIVAN
So this is absolutely novel. And my cardiologist, it's like, well, I don't know what would be the mechanism. I'm like, well, I'm going to find out. And that's what led me to doctors in Georgetown. So I think it was met with, unfortunately, disbelief. And so my echocardiography were just in my own town. I mean, there were, one of the orthopedic physician assistants had the same problems.

00:31:23:17 - 00:31:43:04
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Me clinically, the same thing. People were scared to get worked up because they're afraid they're going to lose their health insurance. I think that would probably stun people who are in this country. But that's how that works. Your life insurance will not be renewed. And so people were very afraid to pursue this diagnosis. And if you Google it, you're not going to like what you see.

00:31:43:06 - 00:32:07:09
ROBERT SULLIVAN
If you Google pulmonary hypertension, you're not gonna like the results that come up. I think there's reason to be hopeful today. We'll get to that. My own echocardiography had the same symptoms. And I said, well, did you image yourself? She's like, no, I don't want it now. And and so there's really you can get referral to the specialist, but that's going to launch it down a different pathway of very expensive medical treatment that that doesn't have any chance of cure.

00:32:07:09 - 00:32:31:11
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And I did not want to do that. My firm belief is like, well, man created this only nature is going to heal. It. The, so reported that there's nothing came of that. And in researching the mechanism, I finally found Doctor Suzuki's paper that was published the very month I got that first vaccine, 20 20th December, and, respirations.

00:32:31:11 - 00:32:52:20
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And he had warned. And so he was, the premises, his paper is, if you have enough exposure, exposure to spike protein, be it from either the intact virus or just from the spike protein, the spike protein is a biologically active molecule. And while he was finding it, it was activating cell signaling in tissue culture of pulmonary vascular cells.

00:32:52:20 - 00:33:12:18
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And it was causing them to divide when they should not. And he even broke that down to various subunits that the intact spike protein would do this. But just the smaller part of the receptor binding domain would not. And that's important because, one of those was a sister vaccine that was considered but and trialed but not used.

00:33:12:18 - 00:33:35:19
ROBERT SULLIVAN
But we got the full length spike protein. And that's significant because it is a biologically active molecule and it's inherently toxic. And he was flat out worried if when I heard potential was a like result of this. And in that original paper there is pathology they were getting from Ukraine. There's a connection between Georgetown and the med school in Ukraine.

00:33:35:21 - 00:34:01:15
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And we were not doing autopsies in this country, but Ukraine was. And so they had a series of autopsies and they were looking at how you do it. Flu, you know, flu because your lungs full fluid and you suffocate the fatalities with Covid were due to vascular overgrowth in the lung. That was narrowing vessels, impeding the blood flow through the lung and eventually culminating in clotting and fatality.

00:34:01:17 - 00:34:13:24
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And so it seems that that is a process just inherently linked to the spike protein and destruction of these two receptors.

00:34:14:01 - 00:34:53:00
ROGER MCFILLIN
We've we saw reports of this coming out right after the vaccine. We saw those who who passed away and the autopsies, autopsies finding blood clots, amongst other things. You know, the evidence has been quite clear, but yet we still have these vaccines on the schedule. They're still being recommended in primary care. And this opens up the greater question about the role that the government has in making recommendations and the adherence to that by the practicing physician and their assumptions.

00:34:53:02 - 00:35:11:21
ROGER MCFILLIN
I just got done reading a report, where a survey was done where only 6% of practicing physicians fully understood the approval process for medical products through the FDA. And, the role of CDC. So there's a.

00:35:11:21 - 00:35:12:20
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Surprised it's that high.

00:35:12:21 - 00:35:14:19
ROGER MCFILLIN
6%. I mean, it's very low, right?

00:35:14:20 - 00:35:17:20
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I don't I this process I, I really would yeah.

00:35:17:22 - 00:35:28:00
ROGER MCFILLIN
So I'm curious to know around the training because you did choose to get the vaccine. And I know it was man, it was mandated. So there's,

00:35:28:02 - 00:35:31:04
ROBERT SULLIVAN
It was not yet mandated when I did it. Okay. But that was coming.

00:35:31:04 - 00:35:37:21
ROGER MCFILLIN
So why did you make the decision to do that?

00:35:37:23 - 00:36:04:09
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Fear. I think you hit the nail on the head is that even though we had probably already all had Covid at the time, it was before the testing was available. So we had clinical Covid, but maybe not. It's the anesthesia. You're right in airways with sick people. And so there's a little bit well, you know, this I hope will provide me some safety.

00:36:04:11 - 00:36:14:24
ROGER MCFILLIN
So genuine fear that you'd be exposed to a pathogen. Yeah. And you would. Yeah. You would get really, really sick. Yeah. Can I ask questions about that?

00:36:15:01 - 00:36:16:02
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Yeah.

00:36:16:04 - 00:36:33:23
ROGER MCFILLIN
I actually am reading this book about. I think it's called Truth of Contagion. Something to that nature. And I'm knee deep in history. Okay. And to be honest with you, I'm not fully sure, that what we've been taught since we've been in elementary school.

00:36:33:24 - 00:36:34:16
ROBERT SULLIVAN
About pandemics.

00:36:34:18 - 00:36:54:05
ROGER MCFILLIN
Around germ theory and infectious disease is entirely accurate. And there's a reason why germ theory is still considered. And a theory, and so much of allopathic medicine's foundation is built on really some of the work by like, Louis Pasteur.

00:36:54:07 - 00:36:55:00
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Okay.

00:36:55:02 - 00:36:56:22
ROGER MCFILLIN
Are you are you familiar with this?

00:36:56:22 - 00:37:21:19
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Some, this is making me laugh because the same physician who taught us to accept error, was, one of the first anesthesiologists to. He was a pioneer in critical care, wrote one of the first critical care textbooks, and he would say something outrageous like this, like, well, I don't believe in germ theory. And and you say, well, Doctor Durbin, what do you mean?

00:37:21:19 - 00:37:44:16
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And he said, well, in the Falkland wars, they were doing battlefield surgery on soldiers outside the had to do invention of a portable box anesthesia machine. And they could do that, right? This right out in the open, terrible wounds, contaminated. And he said the infection rate was less than our labor delivery ward. And his point was, it was the host immune response that is so important to that.

00:37:44:19 - 00:37:50:12
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And he goes, you get sick because your immune system is is for maybe that's what you're.

00:37:50:14 - 00:38:15:06
ROGER MCFILLIN
I'm alluding to two separate theories. So there's the germ theory, which is Louis Pasteur's which got which got captured by Rockefeller's and turned into a Rockefeller allopathic medicine. So the core premise from Louis Pasteur's germ theory is that specific microorganisms invade the body. And cause specific diseases. Right. So I think essentially you go into medical school, why do people get sick?

00:38:15:06 - 00:38:20:03
ROGER MCFILLIN
Why do people get disease? Right? I know we're really good at fixing broken bones and an emergency system.

00:38:20:03 - 00:38:23:14
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Excellent point. Western medicine's great at fixing broken mechanical things. Yes.

00:38:23:16 - 00:38:28:17
ROGER MCFILLIN
But we're horrible at understanding function and why people get sick of restoring health.

00:38:28:23 - 00:38:30:04
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Never ask why.

00:38:30:06 - 00:39:00:17
ROGER MCFILLIN
So what's essentially happened is, through that idea, we've created a system where we have to kill or prevent invading microorganisms. We've created an entire culture of fear. And the therapeutic approach is antibiotics, vaccines, antiseptics, pasteurization. Okay. Putting the industries that have evolved to the side for that, it is essentially putting you at war with nature. Okay. So it's a it's a it's the assumption that you can make me sick.

00:39:00:17 - 00:39:09:21
ROGER MCFILLIN
I can catch your cold, I can get exposed to any microorganism, a germ nature. And then that makes me vulnerable.

00:39:09:23 - 00:39:12:21
ROBERT SULLIVAN
This is very deep in our unconscious, isn't it?

00:39:12:23 - 00:39:14:16
ROGER MCFILLIN
Very deep in our unconscious. Right.

00:39:14:16 - 00:39:15:17
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Think of this the other day.

00:39:15:19 - 00:39:40:12
ROGER MCFILLIN
And we can look at some of the consequences of that, that it actually influences a greater separation from each other and nature. So we become this over sanitized culture. Right? And in that over sanitized culture, we end up killing off very essential microorganisms that are necessary for our health. But it turns out that Louis Pasteur was work was fraudulent.

00:39:40:14 - 00:39:41:08
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I don't know any of this.

00:39:41:08 - 00:39:45:00
ROGER MCFILLIN
So I guess this is like me. This is story time for me.

00:39:45:02 - 00:39:46:16
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Go.

00:39:46:18 - 00:40:10:20
ROGER MCFILLIN
I hope I can find the notes here. Okay? Because, in early 1990s, there was a history professor at, at Princeton who was able to get a hold of all of his work. His work was held within the family, told never to be released, like the original, documentation of his studies. And if you look into the background of Louis Pasteur, is he was an elitist.

00:40:10:20 - 00:40:39:00
ROGER MCFILLIN
He made a lot of money, being connected with, the French government and the aristocrat kind of, culture at that particular time. And there was two competing theories. There was the terrain theory, which basically is connected into the natural world, that it's the host that matters, the terrain, not the organism. So if somebody is like really sick, nutrient deficient, ill, then what does in fact them right can can kill them.

00:40:39:00 - 00:40:59:15
ROGER MCFILLIN
Like there's some level of toxicity. But the truth of the matter was, is that the bacteria that we see that we're able to measure is present in healthy people, and it doesn't kill them. So this got me down the road to and I don't know if you learned Coke's postulates, the scientific standard of germ therapy and how it failed.

00:40:59:16 - 00:41:00:05
ROGER MCFILLIN
Excellent.

00:41:00:07 - 00:41:17:07
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Well, let's talk about that. So that was not taught in medical school, and only later did I find from one of my, guy friends is very knowledgeable. And I was like, what's this? Coke's postulates. And it sort of makes common sense, but you explain it how you want, explain, and I'll see if I understand it the way you do.

00:41:17:07 - 00:41:24:12
ROGER MCFILLIN
This is the scientific method. Right. And so in order for germ theory to be proven.

00:41:24:13 - 00:41:25:02
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Yes, it.

00:41:25:02 - 00:41:32:10
ROGER MCFILLIN
Has to meet four postulates, the first one being the obvious one association. Right. So we're trying to create that because there's.

00:41:32:10 - 00:41:36:03
ROBERT SULLIVAN
A disease state and there's an organism associated. Right. Which I can isolate.

00:41:36:09 - 00:41:36:24
ROGER MCFILLIN
Exactly.

00:41:36:24 - 00:41:40:00
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And then and I've covered how many of the postulates there.

00:41:40:02 - 00:41:41:04
ROGER MCFILLIN
There's four of them. Okay.

00:41:41:07 - 00:41:47:24
ROBERT SULLIVAN
All right. And then you have to be able to take that isolated organism, transmit it to another animal, get the same disease state.

00:41:48:01 - 00:41:48:16
ROGER MCFILLIN
Yes.

00:41:48:18 - 00:41:55:21
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And then I have to be able to isolate that organism and has to match the first. Have by some that.

00:41:55:23 - 00:42:20:09
ROGER MCFILLIN
It's very good. Yeah. And what have we found? We found that that's not true. Let's use like listeria in milk. Right. This is what this is what led to the pasteurization of raw milk. And one of the things and I drink raw milk. So I'll identify that right now and never once been sick. And the reason why I drink raw milk is because of the.

00:42:20:09 - 00:42:21:08
ROBERT SULLIVAN
How are you even here?

00:42:21:08 - 00:42:49:08
ROGER MCFILLIN
The nutrients right. But what happened was there was this is Louis Pasteur's work to prove. Germ theory is that, a bunch of people got sick from drinking milk. Okay, okay. And when he did his investigation, he identified, I think it was listeria, like a like a bacteria. And his belief was, if you can kill that bacteria, you'll prevent getting sick.

00:42:49:08 - 00:43:01:17
ROGER MCFILLIN
It was the bacteria that led to sickness. But the truth of the matter is, is that healthy people had the same bacteria. And it's the same thing with, cholera.

00:43:01:19 - 00:43:02:13
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I was going to bring that up.

00:43:02:13 - 00:43:33:02
ROGER MCFILLIN
Yeah. Right. Like, you can ingest, we can, into your bloodstream, we can inject cholera, or you can you can drink infected water and not get sick while other people got sick. So healthy people couldn't could drink the so called infected water with cholera and not get sick. But we saw that there were places in like cities where people got very, very sick, these isolated areas where people got sick.

00:43:33:02 - 00:43:56:20
ROGER MCFILLIN
And then it gets generalized to everybody. But the association isn't there. So postulate one. So the microorganism must be found in abundance in all organisms suffering from the disease. But should not be found in healthy organisms. So if a microorganism truly causes disease it should be consistently president sick organism consistently absent in healthy ones. This seems reasonable and straightforward.

00:43:57:01 - 00:44:13:06
ROGER MCFILLIN
And that has been abandoned. There's no one study that shows this. And so even with influenza right. You can shake hands. You can cough, you can spit into a cup. I can drink it if I'm healthy, I'm not going to get the flu.

00:44:13:08 - 00:44:14:05
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Unlikely.

00:44:14:07 - 00:44:23:05
ROGER MCFILLIN
Very, very unlikely. So it really does dis confirm germ theory. So this idea that you will get sick, this doesn't even you.

00:44:23:05 - 00:44:23:17
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Know.

00:44:23:19 - 00:44:25:05
ROGER MCFILLIN
This is but let's put I'm going to.

00:44:25:05 - 00:44:50:07
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Put I'm going to maybe I can synthesize this into the way I view what's happened with vaccines specifically vaccines. So I'm going to say this is a case where success bred success. So my understanding as a historian and a physician is that 90% of our longevity increase between the 1800s to now can be traced to clean water. Yeah.

00:44:50:13 - 00:45:03:07
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Chlorinated wells. Yeah. Specifically cholera, and obstetrical care and not transmitting, bacteria. In the journey towards.

00:45:03:09 - 00:45:05:05
ROGER MCFILLIN
That, I think there's one other.

00:45:05:07 - 00:45:06:00
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Okay.

00:45:06:02 - 00:45:10:15
ROGER MCFILLIN
I think it has to do with nutrition.

00:45:10:17 - 00:45:59:20
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Absolutely. And that's component too. So I'm not going to advocate, you know, I think coordinating wells and water. Personally I have a well that's clean enough that I don't need to chlorinated. That's optimal. Yeah. So I would say that is a we're success. These are clear successes of public health. And nutrition is absolutely a component. I think that's well described in bio warfare where the population that's well nourished is very hard to, in fact, to the point where I think you could argue modern day pandemics are probably not a thing in that if you have modern sanitation and antivirals and, antibiotics, that it would be really hard for something to truly sweep

00:45:59:20 - 00:46:17:17
ROBERT SULLIVAN
through a population. It's not going to be the Black death that we have in our teeth, in our subconscious. Asterisk if it's a natural pathogen. And I think that's what's happened with the vaccines is you had a clear success with smallpox. It's not around. Okay.

00:46:17:19 - 00:46:20:03
ROGER MCFILLIN
So that goes back to postulate one.

00:46:20:05 - 00:46:21:07
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Which is.

00:46:21:09 - 00:46:33:23
ROGER MCFILLIN
That whether it's smallpox or whether it is polio, there's the assumption that A equals B that you had this just.

00:46:33:23 - 00:46:35:12
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Made it less right.

00:46:35:14 - 00:46:56:16
ROGER MCFILLIN
But do you know that's not true as a historian also. So there's no evidence that the polio vaccine is what eradicated polio. And there's no evidence that the smallpox vaccine eradicated smallpox. So Dissolving Illusions is a great book to read. Have you read it?

00:46:56:18 - 00:46:57:21
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I have not read that one.

00:46:58:00 - 00:47:22:13
ROGER MCFILLIN
And all you have to do. My last guest, who was here, that was an epidemiologist, Ali Krug, and she likes to say a lot of this stuff is middle school math. Okay. So there's often curves that occur that when a population is exposed to some kind of we'll call it a pathogen or toxicity, or there's a mass of people that gets sick, it tends to go on some type of curve, right?

00:47:22:15 - 00:47:59:07
ROGER MCFILLIN
Like it rises, it peaks, and then naturally it goes down as it begins to go through the population, less people get infected or their bodies naturally fight that off. Right. So when you get that vaccine matters on that curve using math, science, and also you have to ask yourself for the people who have, you know, have the pathogen of smallpox or infected with the, a particular virus or pathogen, and they don't get sick, they don't have any symptoms.

00:47:59:07 - 00:48:25:12
ROGER MCFILLIN
Why is that the case? Right. You have to understand those things from a scientific method perspective, because you understand that there are multiple variables you have to control for variables. So it goes back to like cholera. Why was there cholera in the water, let's say around New York City or major cities as well as outskirts into suburban areas or rural areas.

00:48:25:18 - 00:48:33:07
ROGER MCFILLIN
But it's only people in pocketed areas in the cities that got sick.

00:48:33:09 - 00:48:41:17
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I don't think cholera was just limited to the city. So, I mean, I'll give you example, you can get Vibrio cholerae just from the water supply. This is the Chesapeake Bay.

00:48:41:19 - 00:48:52:07
ROGER MCFILLIN
So you would you would actually have to look that you'd have to look that up. I'll try to put a so you know and I'm not saying nobody gets it. So. But why is it a pandemic in one area more.

00:48:52:07 - 00:49:00:18
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Radical than me. This is good. So the, I thought I was gonna have to come here and argue how broken the medical system was today. We have to agree.

00:49:00:18 - 00:49:02:08
ROGER MCFILLIN
Yeah. Not with me. Okay.

00:49:02:10 - 00:49:21:00
ROBERT SULLIVAN
So I'll use an example of polio, and I'm going to take the clinician's view of this. So I have had patients over my career who have post-polio syndrome. And it's it's not a fun thing is your kids, they were just before the, Salk and saving vaccines came out. They had polio. They have residual, weakness, paralysis and autonomic dysfunction.

00:49:21:02 - 00:49:40:06
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And they would not wish that on people. That population is now pretty old there. Not many of them left. And I'm going to put polio in the win category. However, you will still see polio like illnesses today, where doctors will scratch your head and said you had a sudden onset of, transverse myelitis after a, febrile episode.

00:49:40:08 - 00:49:58:06
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Well, that is that from, potentially a life polio vaccine is there have been errors in the manufacture of it? I don't know, but your sense of the sense is it's much less today. And so as a clinician, I'm willing to put that is a successful one. I'll talk about another one. Yellow fever. So yellow fever used to be endemic in Philadelphia.

00:49:58:08 - 00:50:15:00
ROBERT SULLIVAN
You don't have I don't think that's part of our vaccine regimen today. I studied this because I view it as one of the safest vaccines that's around. But even still, if you go over a million doses, this is going to be eight people who either die or wish they had. But it is required for travel. In other countries.

00:50:15:00 - 00:50:39:17
ROBERT SULLIVAN
My wife is looking to travel to Africa and this is a requirement of the country she was wanted to go to. And so she recently got that vaccine and did find, and so I support that as long as it's voluntary. Where I think we've gone so far off the rails is where these things that were successes with some problems and again, yellow fever vaccine early on have been contaminated, I think, with hepatitis.

00:50:39:17 - 00:51:03:07
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And there was a big scandal around that. And there have been some scandals around the polio vaccine. But clearly we have crossed some. Point now where, for instance, the flu vaccine with each year has less and less efficacy and this year it went negative efficacy. So you can look at it and say the flu vaccine probably caused about one out of four flu cases.

00:51:03:09 - 00:51:21:10
ROBERT SULLIVAN
There is an association with other viral illnesses, maybe up 400%. With each flu vaccine, you're more likely to get another respiratory infection. And the clinicians know this. And then with the M&A product, it's, you know, clearly creating more disease. Clearly.

00:51:21:12 - 00:51:43:24
ROGER MCFILLIN
Yeah. I don't consider myself actually radical on this. I'm actually able to say I'm uncertain and I'm asking questions and I'm evaluating. Yes. So things that I've the things that I've learned is the math doesn't necessarily meet with the narrative states that we're told that something eradicates a condition when that when we don't have the math or the science to support that.

00:51:44:01 - 00:51:47:11
ROGER MCFILLIN
Do you know what polio is?

00:51:47:13 - 00:51:58:03
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Well, it would be the clinical manifestation of nerve damage of the interior or of the spinal column.

00:51:58:05 - 00:52:27:02
ROGER MCFILLIN
So yeah, the challenge with this is because we have this categorization system, that we use as a way to try to categorize symptoms, and then we assume it all comes from one direct source or one discrete identified disease state. But the truth of the matter is, is that polio was a blanket diagnosis. Not that much different than even like irritable bowel syndrome or fibromyalgia.

00:52:27:03 - 00:52:35:03
ROBERT SULLIVAN
But clinical diagnosis, but easy to recognize because of, you know, respiratory paralysis or or paralysis around there.

00:52:35:03 - 00:53:04:00
ROGER MCFILLIN
Well, that occurred, but there was a whole range of symptoms, apparently, that got, you know, identified as polio. And when you start tracing it back to like farming practices and arsenic that was put into the soil to kill off, something that would infect the livestock, for example, and then and then people who are exposed in that area start to ingest that food or that actually turns out to be poison.

00:53:04:02 - 00:53:37:23
ROGER MCFILLIN
Okay, there. That's where the cluster of the endemic of people who develop the symptoms that you just described that can actually lead to paralysis or death, while, other people around the world, around the country might have various symptoms that are labeled as polio but don't lead to the same outcome. And then you have people who, supposedly have polio and then never develop symptoms, but it could be just a problem with the the way that we diagnose with our how we label a condition like so in my.

00:53:38:00 - 00:53:50:11
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Saying is that we could miss there could be some other cause. We're not disputing that these things happen. Right. And we're equipped to ascribe a cause. Yes. In that perhaps we're missing something very important.

00:53:50:13 - 00:54:23:24
ROGER MCFILLIN
I believe we are. Yeah. And actually, I actually think there was deliberate distortion in order to sell products. So it really the, the polio narrative really did feed mass vaccinations an entire industry. And then we need updated science to say, does the vaccination actually prevent disease? What are the harms that could be associated? What happens when you institute it into a healthy individual.

00:54:24:01 - 00:54:46:06
ROGER MCFILLIN
And then it's not just the concept of a vaccine, it's how it's may in fact manufactured the adjuvants, for example. One thing I just recently learned from my my previous guest is there isn't really and this is this is in the it's like Geist right now because I think Robert Kennedy is discussing this. We don't actually have true placebo controlled trials for vaccines.

00:54:46:08 - 00:54:47:08
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Correct.

00:54:47:10 - 00:55:10:12
ROGER MCFILLIN
Which was shocking to me. Yeah, because that's the gold standard science. But it's worse than that because they set up they set up placebo controlled trials where the placebo was the adjuvant. And if in the adjuvant is what is used and manufactured in the vaccine to drive it into the body against for the to break the blood brain barrier, for example.

00:55:10:14 - 00:55:14:20
ROGER MCFILLIN
It's part of that to also to preserve the live virus.

00:55:14:22 - 00:55:17:11
ROBERT SULLIVAN
More I think to inflame the immune system.

00:55:17:12 - 00:55:18:15
ROGER MCFILLIN
Inflame the immune system.

00:55:18:15 - 00:55:19:01
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Protein.

00:55:19:05 - 00:55:23:15
ROGER MCFILLIN
Okay. But the adjuvants that are used are neurotoxins.

00:55:23:17 - 00:55:24:15
ROBERT SULLIVAN
In some cases.

00:55:24:17 - 00:55:53:01
ROGER MCFILLIN
Yeah. Mercury. Bring one of them. And so you're deliberately giving a neurotoxin to a population and comparing it against the product line. So then when you do have injuries that occur in the placebo arm of the trial, and it's not a true placebo, and it could be the adjuvant that creates the injury, they're going to come out similar.

00:55:53:05 - 00:56:19:20
ROGER MCFILLIN
And they're going to then create the narrative that, you know, people are going to die of the disease when they got sick from the adjuvant. So there's not really a placebo controlled trial. And I saw this as well when I did my studies on antidepressants, for example. So what they did with the antidepressant trials is they did this whole, they the placebo group wasn't a true placebo group.

00:56:19:23 - 00:56:50:19
ROGER MCFILLIN
They withdrew them from other psychiatric drugs and put them into withdrawal. And they did that in a pretrial. Okay. And they also did other pretrial work. There's there's a word for it, placebo washing. So placebo washing is where you'll actually do a trial first. And so the people that respond to the placebo, you then eliminate them from your official trial, and you just keep the people who, who didn't because placebo placebo effects are very, very strong.

00:56:51:00 - 00:57:20:05
ROGER MCFILLIN
Right? So that when we start thinking about what might lead to disease and we know that there's a mind body connection, right? That consciousness actually matters. So if you believe you're sick, you believe you're broken. And then there's a antidepressant vaccine. And you provided that your belief system in itself is going to impact matter, right? It's going to create a physiological reaction, a response, something we don't talk about enough.

00:57:20:05 - 00:57:50:16
ROGER MCFILLIN
That's why really understanding, consciousness is really important in general health. So that's why you push the word vaccine. It puts it into the collective consciousness. Yes. But when you realize that vaccines have never undergone placebo controlled trials and we've never compared it with populations that never got the vaccine, like the Amish, for example, there's a reason why they don't want that to occur, because they already know the answer.

00:57:50:16 - 00:57:51:22
ROGER MCFILLIN
We already know the answer.

00:57:51:22 - 00:57:52:17
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I think we do.

00:57:52:19 - 00:58:19:00
ROGER MCFILLIN
Our current vaccine schedule hasn't improved our health. The use of vaccines in our population hasn't eradicated diseases. It's created us to vulnerable, to have more sickness because of the terrain theory. The terrain theory is it is the terrain. It is your body that matters. Anything that can get in the way of natural immune health. Right. And those are that's nutrition.

00:58:19:00 - 00:58:41:04
ROGER MCFILLIN
That's sun exposure, that's exercise. That's connection to nature. That's your lifestyle because that's the most important. Your body is designed to heal in that way. But anything that interferes with that natural process that's evolved over millennial is actually going to increase your vulnerability to get sick, which is why we have these rising rates of autoimmune. We label it autoimmune conditions.

00:58:41:04 - 00:58:50:03
ROGER MCFILLIN
Right. But how does the body attack itself naturally we haven't seen that at other points in history. We see it now. So how can we not say that potentially a cause is.

00:58:50:05 - 00:58:54:02
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Uncommon in other parts of the world? Yeah, yeah.

00:58:54:04 - 00:58:57:01
ROGER MCFILLIN
So does that sound radical?

00:58:57:03 - 00:59:16:07
ROBERT SULLIVAN
So now I don't think. Now let's talk about the real problem that's coming. So I think we're in broad agreement that maybe the testing on this has been inadequate. The I've learned about SSR. So Peter, don't you that name doesn't sound familiar to you.

00:59:16:09 - 00:59:17:23
ROGER MCFILLIN
So he's only from doing my research.

00:59:17:24 - 00:59:39:18
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Okay, so he's a MIT trained data scientist, and I think in anthropology, and a very young editor of the British Medical Journal who worked with, worked at, Oxford with, Tom Jefferson, who was, one of the pioneers of the Cochrane Collective, of looking at things that really actually work in medicine. And for a while he was very well received, in popular media.

00:59:39:18 - 00:59:57:13
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And now he is not because he has questioned many of these things. And the SSRI, when that's where I learned about the problems of that. So sorry. It's only learned about that two years ago. And he was talking, I asked him, is this what you see with the FDA approval process with the everyday product? Is this like, you know, what's your take on that?

00:59:57:13 - 01:00:13:18
ROBERT SULLIVAN
He said, oh, this is what they've been doing. But on steroids. And he used the SSRI example and he has a whole lecture on this. And he shows here's the approval process for the SSRI. And he has a picture of the stack of paperwork on the desk at the FDA. And I think it's a thousand pages. It's several feet high.

01:00:13:20 - 01:00:22:21
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And he said buried in this will be sometimes you don't get all the data if there is a negative study. You may not have to submit it.

01:00:23:00 - 01:00:23:12
ROGER MCFILLIN
They don't have.

01:00:23:12 - 01:00:59:20
ROBERT SULLIVAN
To. There he says he's used an example of an iceberg. He said there's so much more knowledge out there that we don't see. Yeah. And this is relevant to the research I'm doing. With Doctor Suzuki now, is that, maybe this knowledge is already there, but not, revealing. So, when I listen to, his take on SSRI, it was so clear, that I would never prescribe one, and would, urge anyone, not to do that based on the data that he, revealed.

01:00:59:20 - 01:01:07:00
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And I think that had been known from the time of approval. Am I wrong in thinking that that there was never good data for them?

01:01:07:02 - 01:01:10:16
ROGER MCFILLIN
Never know. Only bad data, only bad. Yeah.

01:01:10:18 - 01:01:31:12
ROBERT SULLIVAN
So then he talks about the approval of the products and, so, doctor doctor's expertise is the approval process at the FDA. And so he dissects the, their own data that Pfizer in this case, presented to the FDA. And it's right there. It's public. And it's so clear that there were more deaths in the placebo group.

01:01:31:17 - 01:01:32:13
ROGER MCFILLIN
Yeah.

01:01:32:15 - 01:02:00:12
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I'm sorry, we're deaths in the treatment group. I said that, completely opposite. So the placebo group and they weren't the products had a better survival rate in the treatment arm, which should have red flags. And if we just assume that the data that the FDA got was correct, and there are people who argue that it is not, just based on the data of that approval, there's about 1 in 800 people who, got the product who died or which they had.

01:02:00:14 - 01:02:01:21
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And it's a very conservative.

01:02:01:23 - 01:02:11:17
ROGER MCFILLIN
Do you know, they stopped they abruptly stopped the placebo group when they start, this data started to come in. Yes. And that's evil.

01:02:11:19 - 01:02:15:12
ROBERT SULLIVAN
How do you define evil?

01:02:15:14 - 01:02:17:20
ROGER MCFILLIN
Deliberately trying to hurt people.

01:02:17:22 - 01:02:23:00
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Yeah I would say the best definition I've ever heard is taking power over others without their consent.

01:02:23:02 - 01:02:55:15
ROGER MCFILLIN
That's a great definition. Yeah. I think something of taking the power away from people. But I mean this is intentional, you know, that this product is going to hurt people. Our US government had this knowledge, and I did a pretty extensive podcast on this with Amy Kelly, who was working with the group, or actually, she was leading the group of experts around the world who were evaluating the data once it became available from the Freedom of Information Act.

01:02:55:17 - 01:03:11:20
ROGER MCFILLIN
Erin series, work in that regard. And so they evaluated all the data and they came up with all this information, wrote a very extensive book on this. Go back and look at and listen to my podcast with Amy Kelly earlier. I wish I had the number, on me right now, but I'll put it in the show notes.

01:03:11:22 - 01:03:31:14
ROGER MCFILLIN
But it was very clear it was harmful to pregnant women. It was very clear that it was going to lead to fertility issues for both men and women. We knew that placebo. There were more deaths and hospitalizations in the placebo group, all that was known. So it always comes back to intent. You know, once you know this, then you have to ask the question of intent.

01:03:31:20 - 01:03:43:21
ROGER MCFILLIN
And sorry, I'm not buying the positive intent argument. Now, this was a deliberate attack on the American people, that was going to cause hospitalization, death and disabled.

01:03:43:23 - 01:04:06:15
ROBERT SULLIVAN
So I'd like to argue against you. But I can't. I reached that conclusion later. And in the past, that arrives how I got to that conclusion. So I share your conclusion. And I hope that doesn't turn people off for listening to this. I have the hear me out the. So I report this to the errors and nothing happens.

01:04:06:15 - 01:04:30:22
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And I really did think something was going to happen. I thought, oh my gosh, because point of hypertension has come up in other drug trials. Before there was a drug called interacts. It was a die drug in, Europe. And then a few years into, after it been approved, people started developing arterial damage to lungs, and about half of them died of that of the people that got ill, there's about a 50% mortality rate.

01:04:30:24 - 01:04:56:01
ROBERT SULLIVAN
So that drug been pulled. So the point of hypertension was always sort of a dread complication, a delayed complication of knowing that that could happen in pharmaceuticals. So I thought, and I wrote this in a very doctor way, that it would raise flags. And I really lively thought I'd get a phone call back and did not. Meanwhile, I contacted the, reporter at the Wall Street Journal who had done the what's your workout column?

01:04:56:03 - 01:05:17:07
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I said, hey, you know, I think there's a real problem here that's going to be, insurmountable with this emerging products. Can we, you know, would you forward it to your editors? And then things got very quiet after that. And I did not understand, how, criticism of this is written and this ties into, then it became very hard to speak out about this.

01:05:17:07 - 01:05:39:19
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And this is where there was a shift and this is why I asked earlier between early on December 2020 and when you were considering this, there were seemed to be a mental shift in this country where you could not speak freely about these products. And so I tried to warn about it. And you asked how physicians responded, and the answer was,

01:05:39:21 - 01:05:45:04
ROBERT SULLIVAN

01:05:45:06 - 01:06:08:14
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I don't know the word. I'm looking for it. It's sort of dismissive. I don't know if there were. It was hard to convey this message to physicians. And so that's where I'm interested in your insight is that, with nurses I work with or techs, we all assume that they believe me. I think I have almost universal support, but with physicians.

01:06:08:16 - 01:06:13:24
ROBERT SULLIVAN
But probably not 1 in 10 physicians are understanding what I see.

01:06:14:01 - 01:06:48:01
ROGER MCFILLIN
I faced the same challenge for a while. I was providing a 16 week parent training course for parents of teenagers, and these teenagers were suicidal. Self-injurious, multiple hospitalizations. Almost all of them were on multiple psychiatric drugs because that's the standard of care. And in the 16 weeks, there's very some commonsense recommendations around health that were made because we see, of course, there's a correlation between unhealthy people and rising mental health conditions.

01:06:48:03 - 01:07:17:03
ROGER MCFILLIN
So, for example, social isolation isn't just about loneliness. Social isolation also means you're disconnected from nature. You're disconnected from someone. You're probably not moving your body. You have a sedentary lifestyle. So all these variables. So we're trying to get parents to get the kids off screens, to get them off pharmaceuticals, to eat healthy food, to move their body, to regulate a sleep schedule.

01:07:17:05 - 01:07:33:05
ROGER MCFILLIN
Reasonable. Very, very reasonable. And you'd provide various data on this, and it's always the medically trained parents that provide some of the most resistance. So, for example, sun exposure.

01:07:33:11 - 01:07:34:09
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Yes.

01:07:34:11 - 01:08:00:09
ROGER MCFILLIN
To try to get parents to expose their kids to sun without sunscreen and how the science is very clear about how that's going to interfere with absorption of very important rays. And they're been conditioned to be, you know, to fear sunburn, but they don't understand. Those who use sunscreen are actually more likely to develop skin cancer, unfortunately. Now, that doesn't mean go out there and get burned, like there's different things to protect yourself.

01:08:00:09 - 01:08:33:20
ROGER MCFILLIN
And there's morning sun exposure is the most valuable even in anxiety conditions. The walking in the sun in the morning tends to like regulate the amygdala in a way that you feel less anxious during the day. Talking about food, for example. Animal products, are very nutrient dense. So that's red meat, for example. And the organs of animals, and they're so conditioned, some of these parents are so conditioned by what is the narrative.

01:08:33:22 - 01:08:58:16
ROGER MCFILLIN
Saturated fat is going to increased likelihood of of heart disease. Or there's some and this is the one that was most outrageous is that if you ingest animal products you can be harming the environment. So you have these kids ingesting all this processed food, dead food, chemically laced processed food that's labeled as healthy. And they believe it's healthy, right?

01:08:58:17 - 01:09:06:22
ROGER MCFILLIN
And trying to get through that propaganda is extremely hard. I would never even visit the vaccine aspect of all of this. Wouldn't.

01:09:06:22 - 01:09:07:08
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Even touch.

01:09:07:08 - 01:09:13:23
ROGER MCFILLIN
It. I would not even go close to that. But then trying to give them the science on SSRI to.

01:09:14:03 - 01:09:17:15
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Get some sunshine, stay away from pharmaceuticals, get some.

01:09:17:17 - 01:09:24:24
ROGER MCFILLIN
Or some. Do you know how you know how dangerous and SSRI is for an adolescent? Like, I can't even begin to tell you how dangerous.

01:09:24:24 - 01:09:26:06
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I have a sense, but how bad?

01:09:26:08 - 01:09:43:03
ROGER MCFILLIN
There's a 4 to 6 fold increase in suicide, the likelihood of suicide for a teenager who would take an SSRI compared to a teenager who was on placebo. It's stunning. Increases should be pulled from the market right there.

01:09:43:05 - 01:09:49:04
ROBERT SULLIVAN
There's any indication is would you, in your professional opinion, is there any indication where it's valid to prescribe it?

01:09:49:08 - 01:09:49:23
ROGER MCFILLIN
None.

01:09:50:00 - 01:09:50:14
ROBERT SULLIVAN
You can't find one?

01:09:50:17 - 01:10:25:05
ROGER MCFILLIN
No, none. Because it's based on a false premise that serotonin inducing the, induction of, or increasing serotonin in the nerve cell by blocking its reabsorption, which naturally, what that's going to do, it's going to downregulated and decrease the natural production of serotonin. And as if that has no downstream negative consequences. Right. So you're interfering with a very natural process, not to mention that serotonin, but 90% is you know, created in the gut with complex micro organisms.

01:10:25:05 - 01:11:03:18
ROGER MCFILLIN
And its impact on puberty in the developing body are pervasive. So you are interfering during a critical period in adolescence in a way that is a mass experiment. That's why I think the mass experiment occurred before the Covid vaccines. The mass experiment is with pharmaceuticals that are inducing changes in the body based on that, our pathway model that have downstream consequences that they're never going to mention, because you don't even have to study them long term, like the approval process for an SSRI can be 6 to 8 weeks, you can have 20 trials.

01:11:03:20 - 01:11:26:01
ROGER MCFILLIN
16 of them can show no benefit over a placebo. But if you can find the 2 to 3 the four and submit those to the FDA, you can get approval. But it's the, you're bringing up a good point. It's because the medical professionals are indoctrinated into the system, but it starts way before they entered into medical school.

01:11:26:03 - 01:11:33:03
ROGER MCFILLIN
And this was the crux of my article. Who tends to go to to medical school?

01:11:33:05 - 01:11:56:23
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Those who have been, they mean well, they want to help people. Yeah, I told the medical students and this will get laughed every time no one goes into medicine because childhood was great. The amount of delayed gratification and the training it takes is simply not normal. And now, more than when I was young, it is going to be people who were selected for compliance.

01:11:56:23 - 01:12:05:15
ROBERT SULLIVAN
They will have to jump through every imaginable tube and the end result will be to dampen critical thinking.

01:12:05:17 - 01:12:13:01
ROGER MCFILLIN
I worked in public schools for a little while, and I was able to kind of follow through with those kids that I saw in middle school who ended up becoming physicians.

01:12:13:06 - 01:12:15:11
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Okay, tell me about that.

01:12:15:13 - 01:12:28:04
ROGER MCFILLIN
And this is a this is a theory. This is now I was in I was in, public schools full time while I was getting my doctorate, actually, before I started my practice.

01:12:28:07 - 01:12:29:05
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Okay.

01:12:29:06 - 01:12:56:15
ROGER MCFILLIN
Between 2004 and 2011, 2012, before 2004, I was also doing some work in schools from various positions. But of course I'm a public school graduate myself, so I grew up with physical as well, and you have to be very smart to be a physician. But there's a level of intelligence, there's certain cognitive abilities that you have to be able to perform really high on.

01:12:56:15 - 01:13:25:12
ROGER MCFILLIN
Rote memory is one of them. Right? So rote memory or working memory is your ability to read or hear something, hold it in your memory, manipulate it. Incorporate that into your long term memory and then regurgitate it. Right. We test that with a lot of standardized testing. Most of public school education is that it's regurgitating information that was provided to you.

01:13:25:14 - 01:13:57:02
ROGER MCFILLIN
Right. And so you're very susceptible to memorizing that information. And then in time, certain biases are incorporated. But you see that as absolute fact as truth. And anything that would in any way, challenge some of the notions of that may be met with other cognitive biases. And you would probably resist. But you but the other aspect about the trained medical professionals deference to authority.

01:13:57:04 - 01:14:23:14
ROGER MCFILLIN
So school was something that was, generally speaking, was a positive experience. So their identity or their development around what they're really good at was praised by performance in school. So you have to be a good student in high school. You have to perform well in standardized test to get into a good college. Once you get into college, I mean, you're going to take classes like organic chemistry level.

01:14:23:18 - 01:14:56:11
ROGER MCFILLIN
Yeah, the most calculus, the most challenging courses to be able to pass just for your entrance, then into medical school. But you're also indoctrinated into the system in so many other ways. You have to conduct research, research that's done from a certain perspective. You're contributing to the scientific literature in laboratories. You have to be able to get the highest recommendations from other people who benefit from that system, and groupthink ensues.

01:14:56:13 - 01:15:19:09
ROGER MCFILLIN
So before you even take a step into medical school, you've been indoctrinated from cradle all the way to, you know, the time that you're, you know, 22, 24 years old, whether time you enter medical school. And then, my goodness, what you face to have to go through medical school incur that degree of debt, go to residency.

01:15:19:14 - 01:15:20:20
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Now. There's no backing.

01:15:20:20 - 01:15:31:08
ROGER MCFILLIN
Out at that point. You're it's now you're I mean, you're slave labor for a very long time. Right. And then when you do graduate, yes, you have this ability to make a substantial amount of money.

01:15:31:09 - 01:15:33:10
ROBERT SULLIVAN
We're talking graduation from medical school. Yeah.

01:15:33:12 - 01:15:40:21
ROGER MCFILLIN
No, from residency from from once you're able to practice independently was relatively fun.

01:15:40:23 - 01:15:42:00
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Then the hard work begins.

01:15:42:02 - 01:16:07:19
ROGER MCFILLIN
Yeah, yeah. And residency, what we do to medical professionals in residency is inhumane. Yes. But my point was being that once you eventually are independent and you can practice, you have to work really, really hard. You have to pay back. Most people have to pay back student loans, and now you want to be able to achieve a certain lifestyle, at least financially, from all your hard work.

01:16:07:23 - 01:16:14:08
ROGER MCFILLIN
It's very difficult to be completely independent. Working in the American health care system.

01:16:14:10 - 01:16:17:02
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Almost impossible.

01:16:17:04 - 01:16:53:02
ROGER MCFILLIN
And that's where I think it was breeding ground for complacency and just repeating what the government narrative was, because you've been conditioned to believe that the authority figure and American health care system is supreme. This is the beacon of scientific supremacy and everything they've been taught and everything that they learn is gold, standard science. There's still always science evolves.

01:16:53:02 - 01:17:11:14
ROGER MCFILLIN
I'm not saying they don't believe that science doesn't evolve, but what they know is the pinnacle. And then so when these government recommendations come out and they're following protocols, there is almost blind trust on its safety and its efficacy. And they end up repeating it.

01:17:11:16 - 01:17:28:09
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I would just remove the word almost. Yeah, there's blind trust. So these are great insights. And I wish I had these before I gave my second talk at Georgetown. Because now if we laid out why it went so poorly. Yeah.

01:17:28:11 - 01:18:01:23
ROGER MCFILLIN
You know, it's it's possible that Covid 19 wasn't even actually a pandemic. True. If we think critically. Right. And this is all I want to do is I want to make sure people who listen to this podcast are thinking critically. So here's some data. So there were millions of what we call asymptomatic cases, right? So much so that somewhere between 30 to upwards of 80% were people without symptoms.

01:18:02:00 - 01:18:27:06
ROGER MCFILLIN
And healthy people routinely carried high viral loads without illness. And there was this age stratification which so dramatic differences in outcomes based on age and comorbidity patterns. And we had no evidence that the people with the high viral load actually passed it on and infected another person.

01:18:27:08 - 01:18:30:19
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I haven't studied that, so I haven't looked at viral loads or transmission.

01:18:30:21 - 01:18:35:16
ROGER MCFILLIN
Yeah. So it's possible like you could be a healthy person, have a high viral load.

01:18:35:18 - 01:18:36:22
ROBERT SULLIVAN

01:18:36:24 - 01:19:02:05
ROGER MCFILLIN
Be asymptomatic and you can't infect another person. But we were drilled into it and that we were. And then they used the the testing mechanisms, the PCR tests, which only tested the viral load. Or I could be wrong on that, but the PCR testing in itself was not accurate.

01:19:02:07 - 01:19:10:16
ROBERT SULLIVAN
You can infer on how many cycles it has to run the degree of load, but it's not probably a valid way to do that.

01:19:10:18 - 01:19:16:15
ROGER MCFILLIN
So we had all these people identifying and if you can go back to CNN, you saw the running clock.

01:19:16:17 - 01:19:52:12
ROBERT SULLIVAN
We had a pandemic a testing. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean where some people demolished by this virus, I mean, there there were definitely people who were very harmed. And so the research I do now, going back to the spike, obviously, is that there is a clinical syndrome. I see now that I see daily, at least weekly, sometimes daily of, some version of what I experienced, and this is what I was trying to convey, was perhaps we now have.

01:19:52:14 - 01:20:18:20
ROBERT SULLIVAN
So all the problems we know about this product, the paper spike. Obviously this came out 2023 under, author Perry, in Australia. And it's 80 pages of cataloging the harms of this. And there's a problem with the nanoparticle. There's a problem with synthetic in our everyday. There is a problem with the thing you load into the product that it's going to make.

01:20:18:20 - 01:20:54:13
ROBERT SULLIVAN
It's going to create autoimmune problems. But then you create the spike protein and it's going to create its own set of problems. And it seems unbelievable. How would a simple country anesthesiologist. And a bench researcher at Georgetown have insight into a disease process that had been so rare, but maybe affecting a large portion of the population? You yourselves, you know, people who, who who either had Covid or got the spike protein product, who are just short of breath doing things, it looks like that's a pretty hilly town, I imagine.

01:20:54:15 - 01:20:56:17
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Maybe you seen some of that. What have you seen?

01:20:56:19 - 01:21:13:20
ROGER MCFILLIN
Well, I've seen and I wanted to ask you about this too. Have some people who identify with a range of symptoms that are now characterized as long Covid, and that could include that, what you just mentioned is that same experience. What do you know about long Covid and potential results of that?

01:21:13:20 - 01:21:37:11
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Sure. So. So if there's damage to the point of vasculature, there's going to be a set of symptoms you get and you're going to notice it the more, exertion you do. And so the physiology simplified as this, as you and I are speaking, blood is flowing to your right heart, through your lungs, through the left heart. At about five liters a minute.

01:21:37:13 - 01:21:58:11
ROBERT SULLIVAN
The vasculature is wide open. If you spread it out aside, it would cover the surface area of the tennis court. So it's a very high flow, low pressure system. And the right heart is oriented with longitudinal fibers. So it responds very well to changes in volume. So if you stand up so quickly it doesn't bother you. Or if there's a sudden blood return to the heart, the absorbent.

01:21:58:13 - 01:22:22:01
ROBERT SULLIVAN
The left heart is designed with concentric fibers to pump a high pressure. If you're an athlete and you exercise, it is possible to get your blood flow through the right heart, through the lung, to the left heart, and then out to those tissues 25l, 30 35l a minute. So it's such that that blood can be transverse. One liter, three, your pulmonary vasculature every two seconds.

01:22:22:01 - 01:22:43:12
ROBERT SULLIVAN
It's incredible. Physiology. But anything that is going to pair that blood through to the lung is going to limit the flow to the left heart. And it's going to impair your ability to exercise. It will decrease your robot capacity. That's measured by VO2 max. And I can see. So what happened to me was I felt very, very ill and the pressure in my lung was high.

01:22:43:17 - 01:23:11:02
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And it's my ability to exercise was severely impaired. My I could probably it was it was hard for me to even stand. It was hard to walk. Even three miles an hour would be an epic exertion. People describe me as ashen, gained a lot of fluid, 15 pounds of fluid, felt like I had headache all the time, and the fatigue was simply overwhelming and any kind of exertion, I just get this pressure on my chest.

01:23:11:04 - 01:23:32:06
ROBERT SULLIVAN
That very uncomfortable. I it was about four months before I could even lie down and be comfortable. So the misery is just so hard to overstate, and, I survived it. But what's amazing is that one year I thought, I am surely going to be one of the very rare people where this point your hypertension has reversed, because I'm able to do more stuff.

01:23:32:06 - 01:23:52:20
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I was able to walk hills, even run very slowly. Not great. Got back into the circus arts slowly. And that one year the pressure is not changed. Over three years I have more endurance. I could do more things. I can run some, I can ski again. I can go to altitude, which is a big no no, supposedly with a heavy tension.

01:23:52:20 - 01:24:11:08
ROBERT SULLIVAN
But I'm able to do it. I still have this high pressure. And then I just want to ask what I have lost is the equivalent of if I had a lung taken out, it's what you'd expect after a human activity. And it's hard to convey this to people because you probably look at me like he doesn't look unwell.

01:24:11:10 - 01:24:37:24
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I had a lot of damage, and this is hard to convey to people out there who say, well, you know, I got this product and I'm probably fine. And I ask, well, how do you know that? Are you sure? And it is just stunning. What I see in my practice among staff and patients is how many people are short of breath doing things, and they end up either going to a lung specialist and they will have normal pulmonary function tests, but maybe come up with a diagnosis of asthma even though they've never wheezed.

01:24:38:01 - 01:24:40:12
ROGER MCFILLIN
So it gets attributed to other causes, other causes.

01:24:40:14 - 01:25:05:21
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Or they'll see a cardiologist and, the left heart is pumping fine. They'll even have a clean stress test. The arteries that feed the heart or fine, and there's a shrug. There's a lot of arrhythmias that come. I had a lot of arrhythmias early on to palpitations, which has since passed. And I'll look on the echocardiography report and I'll see near diagnostic or close to diagnostic wonder hypertension.

01:25:05:23 - 01:25:29:12
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And the reason it's so confusing to doctors is we need a better name, because the problem is it's impaired flow to the lungs. Okay. And it will be labeled mild form reserve retention. And even though my primary hypertension doesn't sound bad, but you're still taking something that has a life expectancy of under seven years and usually progresses and.

01:25:29:14 - 01:25:50:12
ROBERT SULLIVAN
It's very hard to convey the seriousness to even other doctors and to people outside of medicine. So my premise is that of anything that can impair blood flow to the lungs, if there's a narrowing of the task. Not sure if there's an overgrowth of, three arterial cells that any impaired blood flow is going to be first noticed by the athletes.

01:25:50:12 - 01:25:52:05
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And you typically see this and.

01:25:52:05 - 01:25:52:17
ROGER MCFILLIN
We have seen.

01:25:52:17 - 01:26:15:04
ROBERT SULLIVAN
That you have seen it. And most athletes I know would say, oh, my times are much slower now. The wattage I can do on a cycle is down. And, and they would usually recover over a few months. But what was really interesting, and this is the point of long Covid is there is one group that looked at long Covid patients who were short of breath doing things, and it's a small study and I send it to it's the one from Italy and it's only 27 patients.

01:26:15:04 - 01:26:38:11
ROBERT SULLIVAN
But every single patient that study had pulmonary hypertension. And the reason this is so remarkable is if you have acute coronary hypertension to the point you make the diagnostic threshold for the pressure, they define as a mean pressure in your lungs of 20mm of mercury used to be 25. They lowered it. But if I were to do that acutely to you, if you were to throw a blood clot to your lung, you're on death's door.

01:26:38:13 - 01:26:53:05
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Many people will not survive that. So by the time if you had, usually pulmonary hypertension would come on over years and would give the right heart time to adapt when it happens acutely, your right heart does not have time to adapt. Now, if you're an athlete, you have a better chance because your heart has been working, doing more pressure and volume work.

01:26:53:05 - 01:27:12:07
ROBERT SULLIVAN
So really trained athletes will actually have a little right heart hypertrophy and that's probably what will save them. But what was remarkable in that Italian study is that at one year they found these patients with long Covid and over year they got a little better. They could do more stuff, they could walk further, they felt better, and they would go and measure them.

01:27:12:07 - 01:27:35:13
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And they were using the gold standard, which is using a right heart catheterization. So they measured the pressure directly in the artery and in the right heart. And they still had hypertension. And so it is possible we had a sea of damage out there. What's unknown and this was with people who had Covid. Okay. So the question next is, and this was Doctor Suzuki's hypothesis.

01:27:35:14 - 01:27:54:10
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Well, we're seeing this, in Covid, if you look back, and he was researching that because he was looking at sirs, it was known was SARS one. If you just took the spike protein component, you could recreate the disease in the animal without the virus attached, it would cause the disease. So that's why he thought to research that.

01:27:54:12 - 01:28:15:16
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And then, we see for hypertension in the autopsy, we see, lung vascular damage in the autopsies. You see it, in the, tissue culture that he was using. And then I'm the human core live that. And the question is this is how much out there by unique or is this something that's broadly happening to people.

01:28:15:16 - 01:28:16:23
ROGER MCFILLIN
In the New York case study?

01:28:16:23 - 01:28:44:18
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I'm the first. Yeah. So, so the question is, is I'm just very unlucky or is this or I'm an example of a spectrum more severe, but a spectrum of things that's happening. And then the next question is, is this an inherent property of the spike protein. And what's very worrisome is that there was a a study with middle aged cyclist with who were train cyclists with, for their age, a good VO2 max, a good aerobic capacity.

01:28:44:18 - 01:29:09:16
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And they gave him a booster shot and they measured their, the road capacity one week after the booster, before and after. So presumably it all already had, mRNA product and they were using, I think, a the Pfizer mini. And at one week, that group in aggregate had a drop in their road capacity. That was what you would expect to see in 5 or 10 years of age.

01:29:09:18 - 01:29:48:17
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And what's I know, and I wrote the authors never heard back like, well, why do you think this is? It's some impaired oxygen delivery that was not going through the lung, where mitochondria is not using the oxygen. There's some problem. And as you get better and as to to end, there's no answer to that yet. And then most recently is the current research at Georgetown, where if you just replicate the experiment as far as one, instead with mice freezing rats this time, then you take, just spike protein, arginine and inject it into the abdomen, the peritoneum of the, of the root.

01:29:48:19 - 01:30:24:04
ROBERT SULLIVAN
You can induce vascular damage. Profoundly. So, and so, I hope this study is published, but it should not be hard to replicate around the world. It's not particularly difficult. You're seeing, pulmonary vascular damage, right. Heart compensation. There's some changes in the heart muscle. You alluded to before, we weren't looking at placenta, but it's no, in the human senses, damage from from Covid, from, source to, and, there are one of the collaborators with this who?

01:30:24:04 - 01:30:31:07
ROBERT SULLIVAN
The cardiologist pathologist looked at the brain slides of the experiment, and the same process is happening in the brain.

01:30:31:09 - 01:30:34:02
ROGER MCFILLIN
I had Doctor Michael Knowles on the podcast.

01:30:34:04 - 01:30:36:04
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I don't know who that is.

01:30:36:06 - 01:31:24:08
ROGER MCFILLIN
He's German. Okay. German physician. Researcher. Okay. And there was his belief that the mRNA, gene therapy was a bioweapon. So I know we talk about, like, Covid 19 being the bioweapon, but I think is hypothesis was the MRA technology is the bioweapon itself. But he was talking about the role of fear. And I've had a number of holistic health practitioners, practitioners who have been on death's door, terminal cancer diagnoses and so forth who have had what's called spontaneous healing or medical miracles, you know, basically sent home to die or, you know, modern medicine and myself could not identify why they were so sick.

01:31:24:10 - 01:31:56:23
ROGER MCFILLIN
And there's an emotional component to healing. An emotional component to disease is what it comes down to. And a lot of people had to face, fear. They had to face previous traumas, they had to employ forgiveness. There was a faith aspect into their healing. And but it was only then when they surrendered to that with courage and faced those things, did we see, did they see, like spontaneous remission or healing when the our panic model in itself could not?

01:31:57:00 - 01:32:15:12
ROGER MCFILLIN
And what you saw with, with Covid was fear induction as a strategy. You know, you even said what I ask you the question, why did you take the vaccine? You said fear, right? And it can be fear of contagion. It could be fear of the unknown, trust in the medical authority, fear for your job, whatever that may be.

01:32:15:12 - 01:32:42:18
ROGER MCFILLIN
But the core aspect is fear. Do you think this is an opportunity for us to step back and look at our paradigm and maybe even look historically about how previous generations and other cultures have approached health and healing? Because it's very clear that the data that exists in our country is that what we're doing is producing poor outcomes in comparison to other cultures.

01:32:42:20 - 01:33:09:21
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I'm going to quote Jeffrey Tucker of the Brownstone Institute when he says, this wreck society, we're not talking about a small thing. I mean, it's been stepwise with everything described about the medical model is failing, and I hope I'm wrong about what I see. But essentially this will be a mass poisoning. The only question I have after researching this for for years is I don't understand why more people aren't sick.

01:33:09:21 - 01:33:31:17
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I'm glad more people were not sick, but this, we can ignore it. But the reckoning is still coming and what I'm advocating for, and I hope what comes out of this is that one people who are suffering these effects, know there are people that believe them because I think a lot of people, it's just been they're being dismissive and it's psychologically very harmful.

01:33:31:17 - 01:34:02:20
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And I hope you and I together can I think we have an opportunity to do. Really alleviate some of the psychological suffering and even help with the medical harm. I think one of the things that's really keeping doctors and looking at this is the sort of futility aspect, like you have this diagnosis, we can't treat it. And what's amazing, and which is a blessing to me, is so Doctor Suzuki has been able to reverse this in, in animal models going back 20 years.

01:34:03:01 - 01:34:20:16
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And I asked him, I said, why isn't this a clinical practice? He said, well, I'm not a classical Asian. It just stopped there. So this issue shows that gulf between bench and translational research. And it's puzzling to me that people will treat end point or hypertension clinics. I would think they'd be really interested in curing patients, but there doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in cure in medicine.

01:34:20:16 - 01:34:44:19
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I know that doesn't surprise you. Is that, you might lose your patient, right? Like cure you want of medicine that you can prescribe all the time, right. I'm interested in cures, and I hope that comes out of this. We face this head on. I hope we, We're at the point we need. It's. We need institutional support to.

01:34:44:21 - 01:35:09:01
ROBERT SULLIVAN
The study in Italy was 21 patients. I'd like to see that replicated here with thousands and really get a handle on what's going on. The amount of vascular damages. We see so many strange diseases now and things that I've just never seen in medicine before, I seen in the last few years. And I presume it's traced back to this product and.

01:35:09:03 - 01:35:19:06
ROBERT SULLIVAN
To your question is, is, I mean, the models is now beyond broken. I mean, patients aren't going to stand for this, I think. What what do you think?

01:35:19:08 - 01:35:41:17
ROGER MCFILLIN
There's a pervasive distrust. That's part of a general awakening. Yeah. And I actually think that's ultimately positive because I do believe the the models broke in the paradigm, is broken. So I'm less interested. And I feel horrible for the people who have taken the vaccine. But I'm interested about future generations preventing this from happening again, because I think we're at risk of vulnerable.

01:35:41:17 - 01:35:53:05
ROBERT SULLIVAN
This is so bad is you have to ask yourself, is it does your civilization move on? As a historian, I ask this question.

01:35:53:07 - 01:35:56:20
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Do you have a civilization after this?

01:35:56:22 - 01:36:01:14
ROGER MCFILLIN
It is a lesson in groupthink, and I think we have to.

01:36:01:14 - 01:36:02:12
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Go to the extreme.

01:36:02:12 - 01:36:29:17
ROGER MCFILLIN
To the extreme. I think that's the the lesson that we have to reflect on. Irving Janis, I think, coined the term 1972. And what groupthink means is it's the practice of thinking or making decisions as a group in a way that discourages creative tivity or individual responsibility, resulting in poor decisions. And this is what has been used as a weapon against just as well, because these are character aspects of medical group think.

01:36:29:17 - 01:37:21:21
ROGER MCFILLIN
The first one is the illusion of consensus, right that all dissenting views are suppressed or ignored. Silence is interpreted as agreement. So those who are not yet sure who don't speak out and medical consensus appears stronger than it actually is, because the mass censorship that exists from that large industry that has that, that benefits from it. So with social media and with the internet, you know, too many people use Google to get information, but they don't realize that what's provided for you in the first few pages of Google is very controlled information, paid for by industry.

01:37:21:23 - 01:37:45:19
ROGER MCFILLIN
Right? So all of that is served to you to influence your bias and influence what you think all those websites on web MD and across the board are funded by industry. And I think the evidence shows that most people aren't going past the first 1 or 2 pages of Google to get information. So it's provided to you. And there's an illusion of of consensus.

01:37:45:19 - 01:37:53:05
ROGER MCFILLIN
So that's a major aspect of medical group think that we have to be aware of self-censorship was it was another one.

01:37:53:07 - 01:37:53:23
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Yes.

01:37:54:00 - 01:38:27:04
ROGER MCFILLIN
And which was the major problem in your community as a medical professional and physicians that members avoided raising contrary evidence? Now, you're not doing that. You're lecturing. And physicians don't voice doubts when they have concerns about protocols, fear of being seen as difficult, unscientific. Right. So you end up adhering to what the group thinks, even if you have legitimate questions.

01:38:27:06 - 01:38:35:00
ROGER MCFILLIN
My big problem with SSRI is in primary care is doctors don't really have the choice to not prescribe.

01:38:35:02 - 01:38:37:07
ROBERT SULLIVAN
You talk that then your article. Yeah.

01:38:37:09 - 01:38:39:01
ROGER MCFILLIN
That's medical groupthink.

01:38:39:03 - 01:38:40:08
ROBERT SULLIVAN
But corporate medicine, that's.

01:38:40:08 - 01:38:49:14
ROGER MCFILLIN
Corporate medicine which is a form of medical groupthink. There's a pressure on dissenters. And those those who question are marginalized.

01:38:49:14 - 01:38:53:05
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Oh for sure, I answer to a French physician by my own daughter.

01:38:53:07 - 01:39:13:07
ROGER MCFILLIN
Interesting, right? What I found fascinating about the time is somebody who has very little background in anything, thinks they're experts just by absorbing the narrative. Right. And and that's the thing, when I try to provide people information about psychiatric drugs, there's going to be a percentage of people just think I'm a quack, not because they know anything, or read one study or know anything about it.

01:39:13:09 - 01:39:16:00
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Just minority view of the same.

01:39:16:02 - 01:39:26:01
ROGER MCFILLIN
Because it's not it's not the majority view. Right. And I've invited so many people to come on to the podcast to debate me on this. Right. You just don't get it.

01:39:26:04 - 01:39:26:17
ROBERT SULLIVAN
They won't do it.

01:39:26:17 - 01:39:35:06
ROGER MCFILLIN
No, they're not going to. Come on. Yeah. I put myself in a small category now because I got obsessed with the research, you know? I mean, I threw myself into.

01:39:35:08 - 01:40:04:24
ROBERT SULLIVAN
It for the same reason I'm studying what I study. This if I had not. If my life. My life depends on understanding. And I hope I live a long life, and I think I will, And I'm able to do things like that. I enjoy life again. I really am happy. And, and a lot of that may be because I did something different things and what would be recommended for my condition.

01:40:05:01 - 01:40:24:12
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And you had to study the necessary to really understand it, to say, can this really be this bad? And people question me. You must rob. You must be misunderstanding it. Yeah. There must be something. You must assume positive intent. There's something you're missing. The key. You cannot be right about this. And you have to study the SSRI. And you see it firsthand.

01:40:24:15 - 01:40:46:20
ROBERT SULLIVAN
You see the damage. You look people in the eye. You know it's wrong, and yet it still keeps happening. You've known about it for 25 years. And yet you present a very persuasive argument. I was already persuaded by Peter Doshi. But you you know, I've read your work on. It's persuaded me, and I guess I don't know how the system changes.

01:40:46:20 - 01:41:11:14
ROBERT SULLIVAN
It's almost as if people have to be rescued from it. I'm left with two books from history. There's one. Freedom. Fear of freedom. And the other was The True Believer. And I think in this country, we we have lived through the big lie. And I think it's very hard for us to realize the things that have happened in other countries that have now happened here.

01:41:11:16 - 01:41:14:10
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And.

01:41:14:12 - 01:41:35:13
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I would like to say everyone would wake up at once. I really hope you're right about in a spiritual awakening, I would, I would I pray that we see that, some of the work, that may have to go with how to treat, damage from injury and damage from, Covid. It may be other countries that have to do it.

01:41:35:13 - 01:41:44:12
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I'm not sure it's going to happen here. I hope it does. But we almost need someone to rescue us from this.

01:41:44:14 - 01:41:54:13
ROGER MCFILLIN
Yeah, I think we're going to have to save ourselves. We can't wait for anyone else. I think this is interesting because there are conditions that foster medical Group think.

01:41:54:15 - 01:41:56:02
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Such as.

01:41:56:04 - 01:42:19:05
ROGER MCFILLIN
One is high group cohesiveness. So a strong professional identity and shared values. You know, we're all in this together type of thing. Intense training creates tight bonds. And then you see this in like what you do with the Navy Seals or our military for example, is you put people through hell, they survive hell. And you know, there's a deep sense of like trust in other people who've kind of gone through it.

01:42:19:05 - 01:42:42:10
ROGER MCFILLIN
You did a great job of talking about, you know, just the experience of a medical professional, what you have to go through. I think that does create, high group cohesiveness, where you trust each other and you trust each other's opinions. The second thing, and this is an important one, which is a major problem within our system, is there's insulation from outside opinions.

01:42:42:12 - 01:43:09:05
ROGER MCFILLIN
I've looked into holistic health literature, naturopaths, functional medicine. I'm very interested in alternative views of treating chronic disease. We have a chronic disease epidemic that is certainly like part of like a range of metabolic conditions. But these dramatic rates, an increase of cancer and so forth, we're just getting sicker earlier. And so I'm looking for these other opinions.

01:43:09:05 - 01:43:46:00
ROGER MCFILLIN
And I was just completely surprised the degree of strong scientific data that exists outside what we would say are the top journals and our exposure to Western medicine, like very convincing research on things like the bio field, consciousness and health, emotions and health, a state of balance with nature, microorganisms, microbiome and all these things that are, you know, very important for the makeup of the body to seek out homeostasis and how they're just suppress it.

01:43:46:02 - 01:44:13:13
ROGER MCFILLIN
Even like problems with antibiotics, the use of antibiotics and things that are just very well understood. Vaccines, of course, are in that the questionable research whether viruses actually exist, as something that can infect somebody like just so much interesting work that's being done. And I'm not saying that for it to be a conspiracy theorist, I'm not saying that all this is absolutely true.

01:44:13:15 - 01:44:51:13
ROGER MCFILLIN
What I'm saying is, if you're in a society where you cannot talk about it, where you can't openly debate it without being called in name, when it's actively suppressed, when you have an apparatus from Hollywood to the media that pushes ideas on an entire population, and then it cultivates fear that that fear is influential in disease. When you've evolved to a stage where health care is only writing prescriptions for pharmaceuticals, synthetic chemicals made in a factory, a lot of them which don't have strong scientific efficacy and a significant amount of harm.

01:44:51:15 - 01:45:05:02
ROGER MCFILLIN
And then you accept it as health care. That's because we've been insulated from those outside viewpoints. Yes. And when you have physicians that aren't even exposed to, to nutritional training. Correct.

01:45:05:04 - 01:45:05:22
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I still.

01:45:05:24 - 01:45:15:07
ROGER MCFILLIN
Yeah. Now, Robert Kennedy just this week said he was going to mandate it as part of, medical training. But again, that's coming from the government. It shouldn't have to come from the government. Right.

01:45:15:09 - 01:45:19:11
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I'm skeptical of all mandates. No. Yeah.

01:45:19:13 - 01:45:49:14
ROGER MCFILLIN
Three other things that, are really influential conditions that Foster Medical Group think it's what's called directive leadership. So directive leadership is a clear hierarchy with strong authority figures, top down decision making and questioning. Leadership is professionally dangerous. So you see this when it comes down from the from government, CDC, FDA process and setting guidelines. But more important is the thought leaders that are actually paid for by industries.

01:45:49:15 - 01:46:21:10
ROGER MCFILLIN
Yes, to push ideas that foster their products. And those people are unquestionable experts. Like, that's why the word expert can be very problematic. The, right along with that is the lack of what's called systemic decision making. So protocols are presented as unquestionable. Yeah. No formal process for challenging guidelines, evidence evaluation done by authorities, not the practitioner. And if you do not follow the protocol, you are then liable.

01:46:21:12 - 01:46:42:18
ROGER MCFILLIN
You are liable legally, yes. So even if the protocol creates, influences malpractice, like following the protocol and your patient dies or gets injured, you're not liable for medical malpractice. If you go outside of the protocol, you're vulnerable.

01:46:42:20 - 01:46:44:07
ROBERT SULLIVAN
That's a first. It.

01:46:44:09 - 01:47:14:17
ROGER MCFILLIN
And this is what the pediatrician told me. He says I know that antidepressants provided to a teenager suicidal are going to increase the likelihood they're going to die by suicide. But if that teenager does die by suicide, and I did not offer an antidepressant, then I can lose my license. And then the last part of this is high stress with low hope.

01:47:14:19 - 01:48:00:10
ROGER MCFILLIN
So crisis situations increase deference to authority. Yes, emergencies justify suspension of normal critical thinking. Yes, like the Covid pandemic created the perfect groupthink conditions because it provokes. That's the fear. It's a crisis situation. You needed to follow the authority you were scared to death to step outside. What was the prevailing narrative because the risk is high? Or to imagine also being a a medical professional who's in a position to treat somebody who has Covid and you're told that a way to get out of the pandemic is to follow these steps and to get the vaccination.

01:48:00:12 - 01:48:06:10
ROGER MCFILLIN
You put yourself liable, you put yourself at risk. If you step outside of that.

01:48:06:12 - 01:48:09:04
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Still?

01:48:09:06 - 01:48:35:05
ROGER MCFILLIN
Still? Yeah. And I think that is the takeaway from your story. That's the takeaway from the past five years that we've been in, is that if we don't take a hard look about how our minds were controlled and how we were behaviorally controlled and conditioned, then we are going as a society, we're going to move closer and closer to extinction.

01:48:35:07 - 01:48:38:24
ROBERT SULLIVAN
We're in deep trouble, I agree.

01:48:39:01 - 01:49:02:02
ROGER MCFILLIN
Do you know Zach Bushes mentioned them on previous podcasts? I'm fascinated by his work. He's a he's a physician. He's kind of pulled himself out of the system because, he himself, just disputes many of the accepted, paradigms of allopathic medicine and when you look at the data, we are moving closer and closer to an extinction event.

01:49:02:04 - 01:49:06:24
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Meaning that the life expectancy is shortening or birth rates are down. But you.

01:49:07:01 - 01:49:36:02
ROGER MCFILLIN
That's it. So when you have the life expectancy shortening, the birth rates are decreasing. So you're not populating the Earth with the amount of people that are dying. And we see a fertility crisis. The fertility crisis is here. 50. I think there's a 50% decrease in sperm count just over the past 25 years. For men identified women are having a harder time becoming pregnant.

01:49:36:04 - 01:49:40:13
ROBERT SULLIVAN
This is economic, physiologic, or both.

01:49:40:15 - 01:49:48:04
ROGER MCFILLIN
I think it is a direct result of being poisoned, for almost a half a century, through.

01:49:48:06 - 01:49:49:21
ROBERT SULLIVAN
A myriad of mechanisms.

01:49:49:21 - 01:50:18:09
ROGER MCFILLIN
Myriad of mechanisms, including us being further and further disconnected, from nature and from ourselves. So we've evolved to be connected with nature. And so we're working under fluorescent lighting, circadian rhythm disruption, lack of light exposure, connection to nature. We're killing microorganisms that are there for our health. We're in a battle, you know, with our own minds, with our own emotions and our own health.

01:50:18:09 - 01:50:44:13
ROGER MCFILLIN
And we've cultivated an entire culture based on fear. And an entire system is there to treat that with billionaires getting richer and richer and then controlling the narrative further and further, as well as controlling our politicians. And so it is through conversations like this. It's us I when I write, I'll often end my Substack articles by just saying resist.

01:50:44:15 - 01:51:18:24
ROGER MCFILLIN
And that's what we have to do. You have to resist the ideas. You have to resist the control mechanisms. So I'm one of the few people that talk that talk about mental health has been co-opted to get you to be in a war with your own emotional states. This is an experiment. Like your own emotional reactions out now to be invalidated, drugged, which are extremely important messengers to you to face, solve problems and get healthy like justifiable anger is an important one.

01:51:19:05 - 01:51:25:02
ROGER MCFILLIN
Yeah, I'm. I'm sure you're justifiably angry. What happened to the stage?

01:51:25:02 - 01:51:47:10
ROBERT SULLIVAN
It's so broken. I just laugh at it now. I mean, I don't mean to belittle anyone's harm, but, I've been watching this for four years, and maybe you'll you'll you'll understand this. So in my talk, I started, both of the quote about my mental disorder without laying out enough facts in the right order. And then just an observation which I made offhandedly.

01:51:47:10 - 01:52:16:23
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I said, look, my observation is that there's a great divide in this country. And if you think that the Covid came from nature, if you believe that you're going to have a worldview where everything the government did and our response to it was good, and the only thing lacking was we need to do more of it. If you think this came out of a lab, you're gonna have a very different worldview.

01:52:17:00 - 01:52:32:00
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And I presented up and I said this, you know, obviously came from a lab, which I guess was the wrong thing to say there. And so, the next one I followed up with, Doctor Suzuki said, yeah, you maybe not have realized you led with that, and it was probably the wrong thing.

01:52:32:02 - 01:52:33:00
ROGER MCFILLIN
No is the right thing.

01:52:33:02 - 01:52:44:17
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Well, I'm not I'm an old doctor, but a young lecturer and a young researcher and I said, well, what do you think? What's going on? He said, they're just fearful for all the reasons you talked about. Yeah. On some level they know.

01:52:44:19 - 01:52:49:00
ROGER MCFILLIN
Yeah. I ultimately felt let down by humanity.

01:52:49:02 - 01:52:53:11
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Yes. I have seen enough. I have seen enough. Yes.

01:52:53:13 - 01:53:13:22
ROGER MCFILLIN
And I felt I felt about that. Yes. I felt I felt more let down by our, our medical providers and our medical establishment and listen, I'm a reasonable person and I've talked to some of these primary care docs in my field, and I know they believe they are doing the right thing, and they're still recommending the Covid vaccine.

01:53:13:24 - 01:53:26:01
ROGER MCFILLIN
And I have, you know, three adult children now. But, my, you know, my oldest was quote unquote being mandated to have to get the Covid vaccine to stay in college. We fought.

01:53:26:01 - 01:53:27:01
ROBERT SULLIVAN
It.

01:53:27:03 - 01:53:47:16
ROGER MCFILLIN
We fought it. And, you know, she was still able to take classes. She had to go through all this testing protocols all the time. It was nonsense. But, you know, she got through it without becoming vaccinated. She's also a medical professional. She's, she went and got her doctorate in physical therapy. She just graduated. And through all her different placements, the same thing.

01:53:47:16 - 01:54:07:11
ROGER MCFILLIN
You're mandated to get this done. She resisted. Yeah. We actually sent her to Orlando to do one of her clinical trainings, because that was the one hospital that was part of this network through Temple University that was willing to have her work there. Cause you have to do a hospital rotations, a physical therapist where it still wasn't expected that you get that.

01:54:07:17 - 01:54:30:06
ROGER MCFILLIN
I mean, you don't even get the flu vaccine. So it's like resisting all of this. And when you resist, you put them to have to defend themselves. And a lot of them don't have legal standing to mandate this, but people just comply out of fear. Yes. And that's what I see. Once you resist, you make them have to defend themselves instead of you defending yourself.

01:54:30:11 - 01:54:40:04
ROBERT SULLIVAN
That's good insight. How did you how did you how would you approach that with the schools? If anyone else is going through this, how would you approach them?

01:54:40:06 - 01:54:53:02
ROGER MCFILLIN
Well, I'm doing it right now. Also, my son is actually leaving for Bucknell University on Sunday. He just graduated high school. And I mean, we're not getting the meningitis vaccine because of data.

01:54:53:04 - 01:54:54:00
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Five minutes or so.

01:54:54:05 - 01:55:23:13
ROGER MCFILLIN
Yeah. It's like for he's a Division one athlete. He's a wrestler like that. The likelihood that he would die of meningitis, is lower than, a vaccine injury. Okay. So that's why, like, relative risk factors are so important. Again, I'm not even sure about germ theory, so that I would put my own healthy son at risk, is beyond me, so we'd resist that.

01:55:23:15 - 01:55:58:05
ROGER MCFILLIN
You realize that Pennsylvania state of Pennsylvania has mandated that, meningitis vaccine. All you have to do is dig a little bit deeper. They have three exemptions, okay? One is religious exemption. One is philosophical, exemption, and another is health exemption. So we have, a philosophical, one, we don't we do. In fact, I would say like the reason he shouldn't get a vaccine is because he's healthy.

01:55:58:07 - 01:56:28:12
ROGER MCFILLIN
Like, and that's the that's the where everything's upside down. If he was if he was, immunocompromised, potentially. Right there actually might change the relative risk profile, because then you're at a higher risk of severe complications from meningitis. But a healthy person is not. And that's why these mass vaccination laws are so problematic, because we treat everyone as if they're the same.

01:56:28:14 - 01:56:50:02
ROGER MCFILLIN
And it and it just like kind of back to something you said earlier when you were treated as a robot. People are sometimes treated like they're robots, like they're like we're all mechanical and the parts don't work together. And ultimately, I'm concerned about the anti-human transhumanist movement. That's the evil part behind this. I don't think they have any indication or I don't think they care at all about transmission of disease.

01:56:50:04 - 01:57:13:22
ROGER MCFILLIN
I think there's a real genuine, agenda to depopulate. And it's been written about it's not like it's a conspiracy theory. You can find the videos from major players in the World Economic Forum talking about the concern of overpopulation. And they use that we're killing the planet and other bullshit things to, to support it. But it's an anti.

01:57:13:23 - 01:57:31:17
ROGER MCFILLIN
It's just another eugenics movement. It's anti-human. And, somehow these sociopaths believe that with AI and other technology, we could enhance humans. We can optimize humans and customers. I fundamentally don't believe that.

01:57:31:21 - 01:57:39:19
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I agree, I don't I think, they may be creating their own new circle of hell.

01:57:39:21 - 01:57:56:19
ROGER MCFILLIN
I think it's been going on for a long time. But listen, I, I've had you for a long time. We've talked about a lot of different topics. I guess I just want to close on this. What is next for you? What are you going to continue to do professionally with what you've learned throughout your entire experience?

01:57:56:19 - 01:58:03:14
ROGER MCFILLIN
How's it better going to serve, your colleagues? How's it going to better serve humanity?

01:58:03:16 - 01:58:24:17
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I think just meeting here today, I think we've done a service. I hope we have. I pray we have a, We'll keep pursuing this research for as long as I can and mainly speak the truth. And I will keep going as long as I can.

01:58:24:19 - 01:58:30:07
ROGER MCFILLIN
One other thing we're going to get to. Okay. How do we heal from all this?

01:58:30:09 - 01:58:52:10
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Well, this are two questions. So I was going to say, how do you heal from the trauma of medical school and the medical training you were asking? And I spoke to that with the students is, I think, the most, the most difficult thing for me is you were taken out of the moment, out of the present, out of your body with all the training, because you have to just fit.

01:58:52:11 - 01:59:13:14
ROBERT SULLIVAN
It's just physically uncomfortable. You're sleep deprived. It's it's not fun. It's delayed gratification. You are always thinking about something in the future. And so anything that will get you back to the moment and it could be anything, but it's got to be creative. It's got to be some art. And that was for me, yoga. And then mistakenly getting into the circus arts, which I thought was aerial yoga was not.

01:59:13:15 - 01:59:32:16
ROBERT SULLIVAN
It was something I didn't realize I was signing up for, but I stayed with it and it ended up being a creative outlet. It was very healing because it got me back in the back of my body, and I can't believe I ultimately ended up performing. I hate being in front of people. I'm not comfortable in front of audiences.

01:59:32:16 - 02:00:08:18
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Normally I'd be very, uncomfortable. You just this kind of talk. But it started a journey that was very healing. And so that was my, message to the students is, don't don't lose touch with that. How do we heal from this trauma? Oh my gosh. I think by admitting here I think that's a big start. You may disagree, but I think if my profession were, are honest about, and with humility, we got this really wrong.

02:00:08:20 - 02:00:32:07
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I think there would be forgiveness there, but I think the admission of error has to be first. It just can't be blanket forgiveness and going more about the same thing. There must be a radical change. And I'm here speaking with you today. My initial prognosis is probably, 100% mortality at 18 months. And I decided I was not going to be a lab experiment.

02:00:32:07 - 02:00:58:16
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I was not going to subject myself to that model anymore. And by several moments of grace, people came to my life that were tremendously helpful. I have a friend that does traditional Chinese medicine and looked at me and said, you don't look well and delivered, medicine, right away. And within three days it took the pressure off my chest.

02:00:58:16 - 02:01:23:21
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And so there's, it's fun as a scientist to look at what were the components of that. And there were things that were very active in my condition that were going to be helpful vasodilators and probably some agents that were, anti mitotic. That probably helped the rest of that process to some degree. The other person on my case report, he's, he I was sicker than him.

02:01:23:21 - 02:01:43:11
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I got better than him. He's been about the same and now is getting worse now. So I worry about that because he's progressing and I think there's reason for hope, though. There's, Other alternative things. Right now, the current state of treatment for hypertension is about $250,000 a year. It will bankrupt you. But I didn't do that route.

02:01:43:12 - 02:02:07:13
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And so I was able to find there are other off the shelf compounds. Some are from nature. Some you can get right off over the counter at health food store. Some that are prescription. But it won't surprise you that things that, upregulate the Ace2 receptor actually have been shown in models for hypertension to treat it.

02:02:07:15 - 02:02:29:02
ROBERT SULLIVAN
You'll recognize hydrochloric when ivermectin oxy cycling is another one. And those have efficacy. You end up regulating that receptor and probably was helpful in that if we were to have another round of Covid, if they're sick Covid patients. Now, I would advocate most of the disease seems to be from destruction of these two receptors and interrupting that physiology.

02:02:29:04 - 02:02:53:00
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And I would hope doctors would look more at, looking at drug maybe alternative non non everyday products. So treating the disease and as you mentioned everything just from having a high vitamin D level, you're very unlikely to be sick from this. And then alternative treatment would be infusing recombinant these two receptors or the product of that is two receptors.

02:02:53:00 - 02:03:17:14
ROBERT SULLIVAN
So that these two receptors not working you get too much angiotensin. You can be the product of these two receptors, angiotensin one seven. It can be infused. That's been done experimentally, I hope, researchers in this country, if you're a patient that is suffering with this, and a doctor that's puzzling over how to treat it, really give a hard look at this point, retention behind this, shortness of breath that's troublesome to someone.

02:03:17:14 - 02:03:39:11
ROBERT SULLIVAN
And if the it's not showing up in the echocardiogram, you may have to do a heart catheterization. And if you're someone that gets this diagnosis, please don't lose. Hope, the fact that I'm here talking with Roger, is, the sign that, I think we can. I think we can fix this, and I would love to see Doctor Suzuki get some more funding.

02:03:39:12 - 02:04:03:16
ROBERT SULLIVAN
I mean, if it could be a GoFundMe page, I hope he gets institutional support. But he's a brilliant man. I think his work is deserving of Nobel Prize. He'll be the first to hear me say that. He's a very modest man. But truly a genius. And he has, sitting, they've just been able to reverse this disease process with inexpensive drugs in animal models.

02:04:03:18 - 02:04:24:16
ROBERT SULLIVAN
They have shown, right, heart cell recovery, and repair of scarring the heart in animals. And so I think, I've been so lucky to meet such gems of people. And even though something very bad happened to me at every turn, I keep running into great people. And I think you're one of them. So thank you for having me here today.

02:04:24:18 - 02:04:45:24
ROGER MCFILLIN
Thank you. I'm so grateful for your willingness to reach out to me and tell your story. I certainly believe that, you know, a lot of people are working for good now in response to what has happened, and that's an important piece of it. So telling your story, questioning the orthodoxy, demanding answers, new research, being vocal about it, lecturing all those are part of the process.

02:04:45:24 - 02:04:53:24
ROGER MCFILLIN
And so, very grateful that you're willing to come on and talk about this and, thank you for radically genuine conversation.

02:04:54:01 - 02:04:54:10
ROBERT SULLIVAN
Thank you.

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