Radically Genuine Podcast with Dr. Roger McFillin

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (00:00.206)
podcast, I am Dr. Roger McFillin. Child sex trafficking, systemic abuse, torture, war crimes, mass manipulation. When we hear about these horrors, we instinctively distance ourselves, assuming these perpetrators exist in some separate monstrous category of humanity. It's like we're separate. But the truth is, they are walking among us. They're leading our institutions.

treating our illnesses, teaching our children, we elect them to hire office, they're influencers on social media, hosting popular podcasts, even shaping narratives. I've personally spent decades working with people who have been mostly victim of these predators, but the nature of the most sophisticated sociopaths is often hidden from us. What I have found is that we are not really good at identifying these people.

Yeah, the criminals in jail are obvious. But the ones with power and wealth, those who are charming, smart, hold positions of authority or prestige, yeah, not so much. These individuals aren't just anomalies. They're strategically positioned throughout society, often drawn to careers that provide power, control, and access, access to vulnerable populations. They're in medicine, law enforcement, education, psychology, politics, religious leadership even.

The most chilling part is they don't necessarily look like monsters. They are some of the most charming, successful, and respected people in the room. They're gonna garner a lot of attention. They have a charismatic energy about them. And so I needed to find out this from an expert because, you know, the work of experts in this field exposes how our systems not only fail to identify these predators,

but frequently reward and elevate them. So today we're gonna be asking questions that are quite difficult to ask. Like how do we recognize these individuals before they devastate our lives? How do we protect ourselves, our children, our cherished institutions from their calculated destruction? And perhaps most importantly, from gaining power and control they so relentlessly pursue. This isn't just an academic discussion.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (02:26.89)
Understanding predatory personalities could be the difference between falling prey and staying safe in a world where the most dangerous predators aren't hiding in the shadows, they're standing in the spotlight, accepting our applause. So I said, I sought out an expert. I found one. She's in Australia. Today I'm honored to welcome Dr. Karen Mitchell. She's a pioneering researcher who has created what may be the world's most accurate and nuanced representation of predatory personalities.

Her groundbreaking work synthesizes data from expert practitioners across diverse fields, from cult deep programmers to FBI profiles, profilers who caught serial killers, from domestic violence experts to those working with toxic leaders in business and politics. Dr. Mitchell has done what no one else has accomplished, creating a unified framework that makes these dangerous individuals easier to identify than before. And that's

precisely why she's probably vulnerable to being targeted herself. Dr. Karen Mitchell, welcome to the Radically Genuine Podcast.

Karen (03:24.014)
It's to be a global, a business system, a size-sustaining, global.

Karen (03:36.749)
Thanks much Roger and thanks for having me on the show.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (03:37.368)
Yeah, I'm very grateful for you willing to come on. I guess I'm just interested in a little bit of you personally, your attraction to this level of research, just a little bit about your background, what brought you to the type of research on some of the most dark and hurtful personalities that exist on this earth.

Karen (04:03.011)
I wouldn't refer to it as an attraction. It's probably an interest. I've worked in large organizations for over 30 years and I got exposed to dark personalities or predatory personalities during that work and I saw over time how destructive they were.

not just to individuals but to organizations. So they create toxic cultures. People are nervous about the way they should proceed. And ultimately, it impacts broader communities and environments. So they have a huge impact because they are entitled and they do break laws and rules and regulations. And so I was actually shocked.

at the extent of the damage they can do. a lot of them are you know, mild-mannered people going about their jobs. But in the shadows, they always have like a double life. There's all this other stuff going on that we don't see necessarily. And also some of my friends were going through quite difficult splits in their relationships.

And I started to look into that because I noticed some of the tactics that were used in personal relationships were the same as those being used in the corporate world. And I found that it wasn't just high conflict divorces, it was actually a predator or a dark personality wanting to control their partner and potentially their children weaponizing the courts.

And again, that was shocking, some of the things that were going on. And then I noticed some of the professionals in the courts were using the same tactics as well. And I became interested in looking at initially psychopathy, psychopaths, but then I realized you've got the dark triad, which involves narcissism and Machiavellianism. So I didn't just do a whole PhD on psychopathy as I planned to, I then did a whole

Karen (06:25.229)
global search on what had been written on narcissism, dark triad, Machiavellianism. And then I realized there were people studying individual behaviors that were the same as these personality researchers. So then I looked up everything that it as much as I could of the key literature on cults, child sex abuse in religion, coercive control and domestic violence, et cetera, et cetera.

All of these people are studying the same behaviors, people who actively violate social norms and harm and disadvantage others by conscious choice, except they don't read each other's work. They don't liaise frequently at all. It's only rare. And so you're getting pockets of information. So for my PhD, I just decided I wanted to bring it all together.

and then look at where the gaps were. So it was quite an intense process. It took me five years full time. So yeah, that's a long answer to why did you get into it? To prevent harm.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (07:37.058)
Did you coin the term dark personalities?

Karen (07:43.466)
No, personalities has been thrown around a bit because you do have like narcissists, psychopaths, Machiavellians. I'm not sure who coined dark personality but it has been used a bit. It's not used as academic references, just used generally to describe.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (08:03.758)
Yeah, I mean, I do like the word because it encompasses a lot more than just when we use the word antisocial personality disorder. So let's get into some more details about the characteristics of these people. You've used the word narcissist, used the word psychopath, Machiavellians. what are, how do we define these? What are their characteristics?

Karen (08:30.627)
Yeah, well, that's a good question. What my research shows, and this is going to be hard for people to get their heads around, but what my research shows is that there is just one type of dark personality or predatory personality. They share the same attributes and they use the same tactics, but they have differentiators like we all do in terms of their capabilities and their values. And what researchers have done is they're focused on the differentiators because, oh, wow, this looks different. But in fact,

it's not useful. As a human race, it's really important that we understand predators and can recognize them. We want to be looking at what are all the shared attributes and what are the tactics they use. So in fact, narcissism is a subset, Machiavellianism, they're just subsets of what I call persistent predatory personality or dark personality. I don't want to get caught up in terminology because that's what the dark personalities do.

to lead us down all different, you know, routes of exploration, which takes our eye off the ball of what do they all, what attributes do they share? So they shared attributes, what came out of my data, which was extensive and was the first ever to canvas information from practitioners working in the areas that you talked about outside of the forensic context, cults, as we talked about toxic leadership in corporates and politics and

or that no one has ever actually gone to people working with these dark personalities outside of the justice system. I think they just have thought it would be too hard to find them. And in my research, they all have an average of 22 years continuous experience with these people. So it's a lot of information that they have available to them. And I use different forms of gathering data as well.

to get to the nitty-gritty, to the nuanced information. But what I found, the shared attributes that came out for this one personality type is first of all control. Is that what you want me to talk about? What the shared... Yeah. So the first is control. Their biggest driver is control. They have...

Karen (10:52.865)
brain anomalies of the prefrontal cortex in the amygdala and there's a substantial amount of research going on in that area at the moment. Because of these brain anomalies, they don't emote like the rest of the population. So what are they motivated by? If you're not motivated by affinity or love or what motivates them is control and it's control of everything. It can be control of a body during a rape or it could be control

of a group of people. It could be control of your accounting client, know, like not giving them proper invoicing so you can't pay the invoice to leave them and then doing all these things to control you, to maintain control. And then I found there were 19 other attributes other than control. Interestingly, the tool that's used the most in the world to assess psychopaths

does not contain the attribute of control. We can talk about that later. But there are 19 others. I might go into all of them. But one of them is sadism. And sadism in the broader sense of the word. They love to play with people's heads, humiliate, demean, disadvantage. It's not just physical harm. And sometimes it's not physical harm at all. But the amount that they do this can

drive a person to suicide because they are constantly understanding their vulnerable people, their targets vulnerabilities, and they have a way of asserting that attribute of sadism. And it can go on for years. Interestingly as well, this does not show up well in the justice system, people in the justice system, because it's hard to assert sadism.

the justice system. So that also is not in the tool to assess psychopaths. So you can't really use it in the general population, this tool. It's like bringing a sledgehammer to put a nail in. It's not subtle enough and yet that's what they're trying to do. So of course, it's harder for us to recognize because it doesn't have the nuance. Other

Karen (13:19.711)
Attributes include brazenness. Because they don't have emotions, they don't experience fear or embarrassment or shame. So they will brazenly do things and say things that the rest of the population would just feel too embarrassed or wouldn't even think of doing. And that's how they often get away with things by this brazenness.

One of the attributes I call is predatory. So it's like they have this understanding like predators in the wild if you watch them. They pick out someone vulnerable. it might be it could still be a high functioning person that they choose to target for a partner or just target to undermine them or target them in the workplace. they generally look for, know, in predators in the wild look for older

animals to prey on or ones that are sick. So that's what they do. They look for vulnerable populations. So you're going to have heaps of them working in domestic violence, working in mental health, working in hospitals because that's where they can control and manipulate with less pushback and it's more fun.

What else do I want to say on that? Yeah, the predatoryness in terms of choosing vulnerable, as I said, it's not always they still might be strong people, but they might have a vulnerability or successful people. In continuing that predatory thing analogy, they then isolate them from the pack. You notice they do that in the wild. They also do that human predators do the same thing.

So they look for people who don't have family or who don't have a support network. And if they do, then they make up stuff about them behind their back. Jane or Greg or whatever has got, she or he are having some problems at the moment. Maybe just stay away for a little while, give them a bit of space. And Jane or Greg's like, what's going on? People aren't, you know.

Karen (15:42.884)
seeing me. So they get confused and then they sort of react in a particular way. Gradually, they become very isolated so they don't have a support system. They might move their partner overseas or all these sorts of things. Then they start to demean them and decrease their confidence. I guess in the wild, they start to attack them and eventually kill them.

What I found in my research is that dark personalities who are mild-mannered psychologists or journalists that have seemed very above board or all these people who are higher functioning, dark personalities, predatory personalities, I forget what I was going to say then. I was so on a roll though. I forget what I was

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (16:34.798)
Well, you're doing great. Yeah, let me follow up on some of the things you said. I am intrigued about the brain anomalies that exist. And there's always going to be the question, what is nature versus nurture, so to speak, right? So first of all, do we know, like, and I know the audience is gonna have this question, why somebody develops to be a dark personality compared to the general population?

Karen (17:04.867)
can't answer that, I'm sorry, because we really don't know. I will only speak to what I know and the research that's available. we really don't know that. When does that develop in the brain? Look, I've had a lot of interaction on social media platforms from interestingly kindergarten teachers.

grade school teachers and they say it's very evident that there are sometimes children who are fascinated with causing pain in others and they don't respond in the way that normal kids do. And in fact there are some autobiographies that have been written by people who are dark personalities presumably, so they say they are.

But having read these, and I read all this in a lot of depth and compare it to all my existing information, it does seem that they know from quite a young age that they're different. They're not scared of things others would be scared of. They're fascinated by conflict and pain in others. But I can't, that's all I can say on that.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (18:25.228)
Yeah, they've talked about that triad and I don't know if this is true or myth, that triad of like harming animals, bedwetting, fascination with starting fires, things of that nature. Is that a sound evidence-based research supported way to identify them early?

Karen (18:44.811)
No. I think there are so... certainly harming animals would be an indicator in my view. Look, academics create a lot of...

They publish a lot of work to get published. And I'm not an academic. I did all this. I'm a practitioner. I'm very pragmatic. And I'm interested in only in reducing harm. I don't have to publish. don't have to... And to be able to recognise them early on, I'm not sure whether the data is there for that.

Like I haven't read all of the academic literature on setting fires and hurting animals. But if you talk about red flags, yes, hurting animals might be one, but it might just be a kid lashing out. I can't really speak to that, but I'm cynical about that.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (19:53.9)
Yeah, I think human nature is we want to feel in control. We want to know things. we want to sometimes reduce things to our simplest understanding. And so if we can say, hey, you know, these people who act out in this week, they these dark personalities, the ones that are dangerous to society, it's because they came from these adverse conditions. And then these adverse conditions, they were like abused and neglected, and then they didn't develop normally. But really, everything that I've read,

is that we find serial killers coming from really good families. Like it's not so easily predictable. Yes, do we increase the likelihood through these adverse conditions that someone might enter into more of a criminal personality or background, but it's not so simple. It's almost like we can't really understand why somebody is born that way and then acts that way based on anything that's necessarily predictable.

Karen (20:51.735)
Well, this is a really important point because what I have found in my research is that there's some people who behave in some of the same ways as the predators, but that's out of abuse. We're not sure about the predators or the dark personalities, right? And all through academic history, this is evident where people have talked about psychopaths A and psychopath B.

psychopath and sociopath, say COVID or malignant narcissist and potentially vulnerable narcissist. People sometimes put those in the other category, but there's always been this distinction between those who are truly, I don't know, for want of a better word, evilly, motivated, evil, and those that are the

I'm not that actually in my research what came up was that the second group do experience shame and the first group don't. The second group are open to treatment or you know that they feel they want to they often want to try and change their behavior. The first group don't they believe their superior because they do not experience fear and they believe people who do experience emotions are weak.

They look down on them. That's why they have this sense of entitlement and they will break laws, rules, regulations, et cetera. The second group, they can be manipulative. They can lie, they can hurt. So I'm not letting them sort of off the hook, so to speak, but antisocial personality disorder as described in the DSM is really the second group. It's about their behaviors. It's not really about their inherent nature.

Yeah, and they have often been hurt by the predators. So those ones have had a parent who's a dark personality or married someone who's a dark personality or in the workplace have encountered someone who's a dark personality and they gradually become, as we talked about before, with the predatory nature, they lose confidence, they start to lash out because the level of

Karen (23:16.737)
The tactics and the attributes of the predators or the dark personalities are just like torture. It hasn't been published properly yet in the literature and that's what my work, I believe, does. My work's much more nuanced and comprehensive around all dark personalities in the adult population and not just those incarcerated or who

commit covert acts, sorry, overt acts of crime, my research goes deeper into the ones that address or impact in a more covert way. yeah, so you've got those, so I talk about there's predators and there's prey.

and often the ones that have lashing out and engaging this way that they're not evil but their behaviors still have an impact but they have often been the prey of torture from the predators. Does that make sense?

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (24:20.236)
Yeah, yeah. What about prevalence rate? mean, do we have an idea of like the percentage of the population that fits this dark personality?

Karen (24:30.689)
Well, that's a good question because I don't believe we have yet captured the true essence of someone who actively violates social norms and harms and disadvantages someone by conscious choice. I think my data is coming close to it and needs to be further researched, et cetera. So how do we measure? We don't really know.

But I did ask my research participants about that, and this is not statistically significant, but I think upward of 10%, maybe up to 15 to 20 % in roles that have control over individuals or groups. So board directors, CEOs, executives in terms of groups, politicians in terms of groups, individuals.

psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, in terms of control over individuals, doctors. So in those groups, it's probably quite a bit higher, but that's just an estimation based on the knowledge of people who can see these types and recognise them and have worked with them for a long time and they're victims.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (25:46.102)
Okay, so that restricted range of emotion is something that certainly intrigues me as well. Is it true that those who are the predatory nature lack the ability to experience empathy at all?

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (26:04.748)
Okay. So, you know, one of the things that's identified in human beings is, you know, these mirror neurons that were able to experience the pain of people around us, even if we're watching from a distance, like something that's on television, images and so forth, unless we find some mechanism to kind of disconnect from it. Are you saying that these predatory personalities, they, there's something

Karen (26:06.552)
Yes.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (26:31.63)
within their biological makeup that hasn't developed to be able to experience the emotions and thoughts and pain of another human being.

Okay, so if that's the case, how have they been able to achieve certain advantages in society, in your opinion? Because it almost feels like that's a real necessary skill for us to be able to understand the experience of another person. But yet these predatory personalities have been able to evade being caught. A lot of them are identified as charming and manipulative.

Karen (26:48.568)
Yes.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (27:16.268)
So from the psychological makeup of these people, how are they able to achieve that given what appears to be a deficit?

Karen (27:29.003)
Yes, well, as I said, they know from when they're quite young that they are different and they copy. So they learn really from a young age that they have to observe what other people are doing and respond in the same way. And some of them go to church to learn how to behave and they go to not just to hide, but to learn.

but they do use charities and churches as places to hide in to make them look good. So copying is a huge aspect of what they're doing. So they're always double processing. They're processing what's being said to them and what's going on in their environment and also how they should react. So it's quite complex what's going on for them. And some of them don't copy quite as well. You can see sometimes when people

cry, for example. And I'm not going to mention any people, but if you look at high-profile people in the media, crying, the dark personalities, there's no tears. They'll wipe and there's no tears. They'll try and sort of scrunch their face up. You can actually try and emulate it. You can see where it's off with some dark personalities. So they emulate and copy

because they don't, there's, it's a very long answer to this. So I'll just give you a few little parts of it, but because they don't experience fear, they're very confident. So they can stare at people and stare into their eyes and stare at them as they walk around the room and people feel really cared for and special. they also, but this is lots of things. So they, they look at people's hats. So.

As I speak, I'm using my hands. They watch people's hands to see what their vulnerabilities are and they listen for what the really important things are. And then they just lie and they say exactly what the person wants to hear, what they know is going to really engage the person in any relationship, whether it's a work relationship, you would feel incredibly special or a friendship or in a religious community.

Karen (29:53.386)
So then they sort of bombard them with these sort of approaches, behaviors that a person will feel, wow, I've never been, I've never felt so seen. But it's all strategic. But they're so effective at it. And because dark personalities have not been fully

recognized all the red flags, which is what my work does, I hope can help a lot of people, we don't know what we're looking for. As soon as I see the stare, and also they have, we're going into how to recognize them now, but in, you know, we're moving out of what your question was, how they become successful. And they also become successful by just

pretty much destroying anyone who gets in their way. So they manipulate, they lie, they create false narratives. They're very convincing about that. They separate people who might find out the truth. It's a very complex dynamic. So I don't know how they manage to run companies and do all of this at the same time, but they do. So while they're doing their job, they're also playing this very complex game.

of, you know, trashing anyone who might get in their way in a very, you know, in a way that doesn't sound negative. So it might be, you know, Fred's got a lot of work on, let's not give Fred any work at the moment, or let's just, we won't invite him to these team meetings for a few weeks because he's just got so much. So, you know, people get sidelined, but in a way that sounds, you know, like,

They're being nice. So they manage to engage in a whole lot of strategies and they also manage themselves really well in the way that they do that. There's heaps more of that.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (31:59.318)
I would imagine, yeah, I would imagine the most dangerous person is the one of very high intelligence and seeks out that coercive power and control because they can find themselves in positions of authority and power.

Karen (32:18.657)
That's a really, really good point. people often say, it's on a scale. Some people aren't as bad as, you know, some narcissists or psychopaths. And remember, I'm only talking about the dark ones. So would be sort of malignant narcissists, covert narcissists as they're called. But so I'm talking about the really dangerous ones.

What's I'm to say? Oh yes, so there's so much to say and then I get on a roll and then I think of another thing. they're actually not different. They all have the same attributes and use exactly the same tactics. It's like they go to dark personality university and they go to dark personality tactics 101 and then 301. It's amazing that they do the same things. That's why I think there's a predatory element to it.

But now I forget what I was going to say again. Hold on one sec. Oh yeah. So it's not on a scale. It's the manifestation of the behavior of the attribute and the tactic depends on or is influenced by intelligence as you're saying. Socio-economic status, upbringing, drug taking.

Impulse control capability. there's all these and freedom is very important to dark personalities because without that freedom, they can't engage in the double life or the other stuff that they're doing. And so some of them will not do some things because they don't want to go to jail where others know they can play the edges of the legal system and not end up in jail. Like some of the politicians and senior executives and priests and

So they'll be more brazen. So it's not that there is a scale. There's not a scale. There's the same attributes and the same tactics.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (34:29.708)
Yeah, and I would imagine, of course, different skill level and different power and different control aspects. So I guess one of the things I've noticed as a clinical psychologist is people who under this umbrella tend to have a very low tolerance for maybe boredom. So they're constantly seeking out stimulation and that could come in the form of various risk taking. So maybe, you know, if they're married in a family and they're leading this double life that it's

you know, a number of affairs or relationships with women, or it's taking risks in, in business or career. It is kind of working on the edges as a way of getting stimulated, emotionally stimulated in life because there's a very low tolerance for boredom. And since they lack those feelings of empathy and then this decreased sensation for fear, that they're able to do things and act in ways that most people were

would be afraid to do like they cheat on their spouse because they're afraid to lose their marriage. Or they don't commit these this degree of fraud or these nefarious business relationships because they're afraid of violating the law. but they're getting something they're seeking out this certain stimulation from it. What do you believe is that emotional experience that they're seeking out?

Karen (35:52.204)
Well, first of all, yes, it does say that in some of the academic literature. I don't think it's correct about boredom, right? As I've said before, and it's not about risk taking, as I've said before, they are motivated very differently to us. They're like different creatures. So they have no boundaries around sexuality at all. It could be the friend's kids. It could be the dog. It could be

You know, it shows up in a whole lot of different ways. You know, different ways of experiencing sexuality, transsexuality, which is not to say any of this is good or bad or right or wrong. It's just they like to explore all different types of sexuality. They know they shouldn't be, if they are in a relationship, they're in a relationship often because they don't experience love. They're in a relationship to hide their nefarious behaviors.

So they like to exploit. They like to do all this humiliation and demeaning and all this sort of stuff. They do like to push boundaries, any sort of boundaries. They're fascinated by it. So remember, it's not about joy or affinity or love. They're interested in exploring all this stuff and seeing how far they can push people.

And so they're doing all this stuff on the side. All dark personalities have a double life. And so often they use church or marriage as just a part of their facade. And they play it so well that if they ever do get caught out, their partner or whoever, or their team at work or whatever.

will just stick up for them even though they're incredibly guilty of breaking laws or agreements or codes or regulations. They get a huge amount of support because of that. yeah, I don't think it's really about risk because they don't like risk really because they don't want to be exposed.

Karen (38:10.115)
But some of them are just, yeah, the ones with lower impulse control capability and lower intelligence and maybe drug taking, it might look like risk taking because they make poor decisions. But yeah, so does that answer your question?

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (38:27.574)
Yeah, it does. I think it leaves some gaps in my understanding because obviously I'm trying to get inside their heads and trying to know what they're trying to experience. So you might have kind of addressed this in the beginning when you talked about that need for control or sadism even. like that wanting to humiliate, demean or control somebody else, which looks like for

you know, on the outside that there's looking for some form of stimulation outside what is typical, like there's a low tolerance for boredom. But if I'm hearing from you that there's a deeper desire to hurt other people, they're like almost, it seems like they're craving that in some way.

Karen (39:15.203)
Correct. And that's what it is. So they're driven to manipulate and exploit and demean and human. I mean, they're fascinated with watching how they can control and hurt and manage people. Cult leaders are a great example. Pretty much all cult leaders are dark personalities and I make that as a generalization, not as a research-based comment.

You can see if you watch any of the documentaries on some of these cults, that the cult leaders play people off against each other. It's actually, that's a great way of looking at how all dark personalities operate in marriages, in work environments, in sports, et cetera. So they'll play each other off. They set rules.

They set rules by being very positive when you do the right thing, but you get intimidation if you don't do the right thing. So that's part of control. There's a whole lot around sexual boundarylessness in a lot of cults. Yes, so there's a lot around what you can do, what you can't do, and it's about a greater cause. So that's what they like to do. They like to...

see how far they can take people. mean, there's lots of great documentaries on cults. There's one on one in Australia called The Family that was in Australia I think in the 70s and 80s. And it's really clear how this woman, she would talk about who could marry who and who could have babies to who.

everyone had to kind of worship her. so people say that narcissism is about attention. I mean, it's just like anyone else. Some people like attention, some people don't. It's more around everything has to be about them, but in a way that's not always that obvious. Like cult leaders is again a good example. So in a family where you've got a dark personality.

Karen (41:36.312)
They will buy something for themselves before clothes for the kids, but they'll have photos of their children on their desk at work and at home and whatever. So again, the double life is going on and the focus is on them and what they want and them controlling and then manipulating. So yeah, it's not about boredom. It's about this life that they're leading with a different motivation.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (42:04.568)
Sure, sure. Let's move on to the motivation of politicians. Some of the things that are really big in the news right now, or what's happening in the United States is that there are, you know, there's a certain, you know, veil of propaganda that seems to be disintegrating a little bit in American culture. So we're much more aware of the, you know, United States military industrial complex and how...

Karen (42:05.955)
Does that make sense?

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (42:30.7)
politicians or deep state politicians in the United States have been pushing for forever wars and, and being involved in other countries and, and, understanding how there's a, of a financial gain from that military industrial complex. There's also, you know, revealing politicians like the Epstein files for, for example, where we really see how politicians have been controlled.

what appears to be probably from foreign agents, and that you're controlled by being caught for certain behaviors that would be rejected in society. Sexual in nature is a big one. what we know for a fact that these dark personalities are attracted to certain professions, one that can feed their sadism, their control aspect, their desire.

to be adored in a lot of ways and to be able to have power and control. How are we able to distinguish the politician who is genuinely interested in public service, versus the politician who is nothing more than a dark personality and it becomes extremely dangerous to global affairs, to our entire world with nuclear weapons and releasing pandemics. Obviously, this is stuff that's like really important for

us people in society who are in a dark personality.

Karen (44:03.095)
Yeah, I agree with you. mean, I'm really concerned because dark personalities used to only be able to influence their own countries. And we've seen both left-wing and right-wing despots or dictators who have caused enormous harm in certain countries. However, now because of globalization and global platforms, people

who are dark personalities and go into politics have global reach. And it is really scary because their motivation is just so different. And how do we recognize them? Well, I'm on a panel, a North American think tank panel around the efficacy and issues related to brain scanning for people going into leadership roles to see if we can actually

stop people going in that are, you know, that have the brain anomalies. Yeah, that's a really tough one. That is a really tough one because they're never going to acknowledge that they are. Like I talk about exposure as being like exposure to a dark personality is like tryptanite to Superman.

They hate exposure and they will do anything to keep up their dark life and exposure prevents that. And yes, I am targeted because that's what I'm about, exposure. And my business has been targeted, my research has been targeted. And so they will try and destroy people who expose them. So how do we get them out of powerful positions?

in a global world, it's pretty tough.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (46:00.44)
They have an advantage, don't they?

Karen (46:06.775)
They believe they do in that because they don't feel fear and because they're willing to break rules and regulations and they're very entitled and they're just brazen. So that is an advantage. We have the numbers.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (46:21.378)
Yeah, I mean, we do have the numbers and that's really important. I want to get into that. But the ability to lie in a position of authority is so dangerous. I mean, we've seen it through COVID. We see it in our government's alliance with major industries. Like the United States is a sick culture right now. So much so there's a revolutionary movement.

called Make America Healthy Again, that is about exposing really what these companies, along with our government officials, pharmaceutical industries, have done to really poison the American population and maintain a sick care system that works off itself financially. So we sicken ourselves with the food industry, we develop sickness, then we treat it with drugs in our health care system. And we see that there's an unholy alliance with funding

campaigns of politicians, and they're probably the most powerful lobbying influences in all of Washington. And so we're unable to really make change because our politicians are owned by these industries. And so what we believe is, you know, that they're going to Washington to act on our best interest, what they really are is part of a nefarious system that's working together to maintain their own power, their own financial gain.

And so many people in the United States have been kind of indoctrinated into the system for so long that we've been conditioned to believe we're on one team or another, not really understanding that the two party system is certainly working together in very similar facets. And it just divides the regular people. And the charade goes on, you know, every two years with elections, every four years with presidential elections. And I think that people are waking up.

But to wake up is you'd have to be, you didn't really have to pay attention. You'd have to pay attention to your elected officials. And I don't think people know that they're chosen for us. They're chosen by those powerful interests. They're controlled by them. And we're not even, we're not even provided a choice. So you have to really pay attention to how they're voting or what's going on when there's nominations for major positions in the government. And it almost feels a bit, a bit hopeless.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (48:43.458)
because all these people are going to be attracted to this type of position. Someone like me, for example, or maybe someone like you would not be attracted to those positions because we experience empathy, we have a hard time lying, we experience the feeling of fear, right? We can be, you know, one of the things is the way that you can be controlled is through fear. And so to be in part of that system, all someone has to do is say, I'm going to take away what you...

value most, right, which is your family or your reputation. And we know now they have the power to do all of that, especially with modern technology.

Karen (49:22.595)
and they had the brazenness to do it and the will to do it. That's the thing about dark personalities, the boundarylessness. They will go where other people just wouldn't go to create fear or to intimidate or to threaten. And we, you know, back off because of that. And that's where coercive control comes into things. So you don't have to be physically hurting someone, coercive control.

Is the threat of something that you know someone will follow through on. So when people say, why didn't she or he leave that marriage or relationship? It's because of they it's because they know that this person will go the extra step that no one would even think they would. And it's going to really hurt their children or other people. And so they do have, I guess that is the edge that they have.

their willingness to just do the most horrible things and to use the threat of that, that is part of their power.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (50:32.652)
And there's such, once you get to the highest levels, there's such a lack of accountability. I mean, this differs so much from the typical street criminal or someone who gets incarcerated or has a criminal background. You know, they're committing crimes all the time at the highest level, but they're so protected by their inner web of associations, right? It's like the law does not apply to them. And that's why you see like right now, like Anthony Fauci is a great example because he's my version in my head of a dark personality.

someone who would lie, manipulate, if you read the book, the real Anthony Fauci, and you see how many people were killed and hurt during research on AIDS and this guy's like willingness just to look straight in the face of the American people and lie. And then he gets pardoned ahead of time by Joe Biden. Why would you get pardoned if you didn't commit a crime? What are you being pardoned for, right?

But it's like they have these special protections as long as they're working, you know, amongst the elite class.

Karen (51:35.78)
I don't like to, on social platforms, I'm not partisan. I won't talk about individual people. So I it's just better because I want my information to be accepted by everybody. So I don't take any partisan or political position with things.

But what I would say to that is...

Karen (52:14.019)
think one of the key themes you're talking about there is lying and how they can just lie and lie to large groups and look really serious, know, really compelling. I use the word compelling a lot because some of them are not necessarily

Karen (52:37.559)
You know, they're not necessarily the life of the party. We often think narcissistic, they want lots of attention, everything. Some of them are very, some of them don't even bother putting on the facade. This came out strongly in my data too, that they're very dowdy. very like, they're low emotive. At their very base, they don't emote at all. They're quite, and if you're with them for long periods in a room, it feels like all the energy is being sucked into a hole in the floor. You can actually feel the lack of energy.

There's just, there was a woman in my research who's worked with lifers a lot with lifers in prisons. And she said the moment they realized that there is no getting out, there's no pardons, there's no conditional, you know, releases or anything like that. She said it's like a switch has turned. They just become emotionless. There's no.

It's no expression, no changing in tones. So some of them actually are so super confident and entitled. They don't even bother putting on the acted emotional responses or even the facades. So they can, they're not, so I use compelling. They're all compelling in their own way. And yes, they're brilliant at lying. They are, it's like, and they love that they are, right?

They enjoy about themselves that they can create false narrative and just completely have a whole lot of people believe it. They get their kicks out of that. And one of the reasons they're so good at lying is this lack of fear or shame. And along with the attribute of brazenness and entitlement, look how powerful that is.

So there's heaps of people out there doing that, working in hospitals, working as psychologists, working in the courts. I mean, we've got judges that are dark personalities. It's very obvious. Again, I'm not going into detail, but I do a lot of research into people. When I start to think they're a dark personality, I then do major research on them. And because I'm very clear about the attributes, the tactics, and the red flags, there's a load of red flags. For example,

Karen (54:58.583)
yeah, so I know there's judges out there in a lot of countries, the family courts classic, cause you've got vulnerable people in the family court and they go in there and they shatter them even more and compromise the children because they're exploitative. They'll often take payments. I mean, this is hard for people to believe this going on all the time. They'll take payments to manipulate the outcomes of the courts.

You know, we think this is something in movies or it happens, you know, now and then it's happening all the time and a lot. But what's it going to say about lying and brazenness and something else? Anyway, sorry, so much to say, so little time.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (55:41.806)
Yeah, there's certain some things that are, I think we have to be on guard for and protect against society in society because these dark personalities, those who are in power can actually create narratives. And you were mentioning before the lack of sexual boundaries that could exist. Those who have the proclivity to be attracted to children or want to sexually abuse children are some of the most dangerous people that we have to protect.

against. And you see these little movements in society, even in like in the fields of like sociology or psychology, where we don't use the word pedophilia anymore, we should use the word minor attracted people, like they like they're afflicted with some disease or something that they can't help. Like it just seeps in there. And we've done the same thing with transgenderism with children.

And then you can, you can develop an entire industry around it where dark personalities would be willing to like prevent puberty in a child in the name that somehow that that promotes positive mental health, all these little things that are integrated into society that get us to detach or distort our own objective sense of reality. No, there's no such thing as minor attracted children. Okay. If you're, if you abuse or you take away somebody's innocence.

You know, you have the power to ruin that person because you take away their innocence and it affects them the rest of their life and their ability to feel safe and to trust others. And that's a sickness. And that's a dark personality, someone who would do that. Or on the other end, be part of child sex trafficking or child pornography or sending out of child pornography. Like those type of people who have the ability to harm a child.

we really have to be on guard with those people. And you put out a tweet not too long ago, which I thought was was really important where you were talking about, and some people had some negative reactions to this, but I loved it and love your your your ex account, by the way. And it was like, you have to be on guard, and not just blindly give your trust out to people who are whether they're teachers or their medical professionals or their therapists or their clergy, like

Karen (57:52.864)
see.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (58:02.05)
you need to be able to kind of protect your children or protect your family against these people because they exist out there and they're amongst us. So if we're going to face reality as it is, what are your suggestions here? What are the best ways we can protect ourselves from these dark personalities? And I have my thoughts too,

Karen (58:25.347)
Okay, I look forward to hearing those. Well, education is the first thing. So understanding, see we don't, it's true and this came out of my data that we don't want to think about the bad. You know, we want to think about puppy dogs and kittens and Disneyland and fairy floss or you call it cotton candy.

You know, we want the world to be tied up with a ribbon and just live in that world, but it's not like that. It's just not like that. There are so many of these people and we do have to educate and I think we should have the work that, well the data that came out of my research, it should be in schools, taught in schools about predators.

And not just sexual predators. When I say predators, I mean exploiters, dark personalities, because there are so many of them. so I think my work, and I haven't putting it into a book, it's just been a bit slower in getting out than I would have liked, but will describe these attributes and describe the tactics they use, but most importantly, the red flags.

So there's loads of red flags and none of the academic literature has put any of this out there because they just, haven't been surveying the right groups of people and they haven't been using the right research techniques. Like a lot of them use self-assessment. mean, using self-assessment research techniques with dark personalities is like, you know, giving up.

a lion a piece of meat and saying don't eat it. It is not going to be useful you know. They lie just because they that's what they it's not they don't even know when they have to lie they lie just for the the sake of it. And then the research where they've gone to the broader population is often on just a generalist survey where they throw on a few questions and that just assumes the dark personalities are going to answer.

Karen (01:00:31.859)
that they're actually, mean, most art person would even bother to do a survey. It assumes that the survey is going to understand the depth of their malevolence to even ask the question that gets to it. There is so much wrong with the research so far. So the red flags have not been out there. there's heaps of red flags. For example, watching your hands when you talk, they will

constantly watch your hands when you talk, some of them, not all of them, but it is a red flag, because they want to know what makes you vulnerable. They always want to be in that position of strength, like a predatory animal. Another thing is, and people who've been targeted will know this well, the smirk. There's a particular way when they see pain in someone else, there's a...

face that an expression that you can see and I've seen it many times on a dark personality where just one side of the mouth will go up and they kind of often will peer like they're studying the pain. again, there'll be millions of people out there who've seen this in dark personalities that they've been with over a long period of time and it's horrible.

when it's targeted at you because you know you're heading at the time and you know they're enjoying it. So I could give you 50 of these and that's what I'm putting in the book. long answer to your question, what can people do to protect? Mainly it is education, right? Understanding all these many red flags and the tactics and the attributes. Secondly, it's being intuitively.

confident that if you think, gee, there's a few red flags in that we're not doing that. It's making a strong stand for protecting your family and friends when you have a concern like that. A lot of people let it go too long and they say later, I saw that and I knew that. We don't want to hear that anymore. We want to hear.

Karen (01:02:47.553)
Yes, I saw this, this and this and I might have been wrong and I might have been right, but I chose early. Right? So first thing is huge amount of education and learning. Secondly, it's about making the call. Thirdly, I think having conversations about it because this, all of this is quite new, higher functioning, you know, dark personalities. I mean, there's millions of them working in the courts, in psychology, in psychiatry, in social work, in journalism.

So having dialogues about it and actually saying, which is not to tear other people apart, but it's to say, what should we be looking for? What are the red flags? Because I get on my social media posts a lot more, what do we look for? I promise the book will be out soon. I keep getting asked for it because that will have it all in there.

And the fourth thing I think is accepting the depth of harm these people are capable of. Like when I talk about it, even people who've been targeted will go, really? When I give an example of it, it's difficult to accept that there's people that look like us, that smile and that go on vacation and that go down the grocery store and go to their kids' sports game.

profoundly different in a way that is horrible, right? Because they cover it up so much, so accepting is a fourth thing. What are your views?

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:04:27.872)
I think there needs to be honorable, good men in a society that stands up against, protects their family, number one, but also fights against the dark personality. So I think when you see a disintegration of the family, like when fathers leave the mothers of their children, and there's not an active father in the home, that creates a vulnerability that the dark personality in itself will prey upon. I also think there's financial, you

difficulties that, you know, occur when there's not an active father. Also, when we talk about honorable good men, honorable, good, healthy, strong men in society. So you are vulnerable to tyranny, you're vulnerable to control, you're vulnerable to dark personalities, when you are weakened by fear, and you can't physically take care of your own family, nor spot where the danger could be. You need

good people in society, especially good men. And what we're seeing in Western society is a dramatic decrease in testosterone, a necessary hormone for strength and protection and aggressiveness. And there's been this manipulation that talks about toxic masculinity. It's like trying to deny traditional masculinity, which is really about protection of those who are weak. It's about taking care of your family. It's about standing up against harm. When you see that kind of demonic

propaganda that's used to decrease the value of men, undermine, in my opinion, you undermine the foundations of society. Also, good, honorable men respect, honor, and treat women well, especially women they commit to. And that's necessary for kids to observe that. So if we're going to protect our most vulnerable, which are children, then you need to have strong families and have to have strong men who are willing to fight.

for what is right. You said earlier in this podcast, there's more of us, right? We have to realize that there's more of good people who are honest and honorable and, you know, care for each other. That is human nature. And then we have to have the strength and the courage to fight against dark personalities and stand up against any type of tyranny, control, sadism, and things like that, because it tends to be clear.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:06:49.234)
and you know, to be honest, revolutions are necessary. Revolutions are necessary in countries that are necessary against institutions. And when those institutions or countries do harm, people have a responsibility to fight against that tyranny, and control the more power these people have, they're going to use it against all of us. And we can only be controlled when there's, when there's fear and. know, these things, we have to be open. have to be able to, we have to be able to openly talk about where

have we started to see the disintegration of like Western cultures, Western society, liberal Western society, which traditionally has arose out of individual liberty, personal freedoms, right? And making sure all those things are respected, free speech, our right to bear arms, protect ourselves, our freedom and right to liberty and...

the pursuit of happiness, a system of meritocracy, all these things that are really important to give us opportunity get controlled and limited by the dark personality. get limited and controlled by the person who tends to obtain that power. And when society shifts, where you have a small percentage of people who hold all the wealth and hold all the power, that's evidence to us that there's systemic problems in the way that we've

created our cultures and societies that have led for those who violate these social norms to be able to obtain more power than the person who follows the rules and has integrity and it might be faith based or cares about other people because you are actually in a crony capitalism, for example, you become a disadvantage if your only way to powers through lie, cheat, steal, coercion.

and associating with industry or people with money, you know, that's not really society we want to be a part of.

Karen (01:08:56.301)
Yes. Well, you talk about revolution.

Karen (01:09:05.827)
fully believe that history repeats itself and that children should be studying history in schools to look at the patterns and look what we think because we're experiencing now this it's so special but it's actually not it's happened before and before that and you know even in countries like India where you know there was a range of marriage like 30 or 40 years ago that was really

It's not as common now but it's still there. But then there was open section. I mean, there's stuff in 900 AD, which is all these naked people in a place called Kajaraho in India, all carved in rocks or in these sort of pyramid-type structures. It's like, well, what happened from it to go to there, to there, to... So, yeah, we do go in these cycles. And look...

At the moment, think it's a bit like Russia in 1917 in that there are, in 1917 in Russia, there were a whole lot of people who, not a whole lot, a handful of people, more than a handful, but a group of people who owned all the assets, similar to what we've got now. And then there was a revolution. And actually, people got shot. I'm not condoning that in any way, but.

You know, people, when human beings lose power in structures and they lose power in groups, like unions and so they're fine. Human beings are fine when they feel they have some sense of power through structures or groups. When they lose both of those because you've got a group, a small group that's got all the

means to control, then you do that. That is when you get revolution, I believe. And yes, there are more of us. It is interesting that… Well, actually, I'm not going to go into it. I won't say that, what I was going to say, because it's a sensitive issue. But people's livelihoods get taken away. Their families at this point of… We have a small number with owning all the assets.

Karen (01:11:31.171)
And greed comes into play and so people lose jobs and they lose families and that's when they become very angry because under a small group with a lot of money, the structures and groups that would normally give them power don't anymore. So yeah, I think we're at a bit of a precipice.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:11:53.762)
I agree. One final question for you. I'm imagining like everybody who's listening to us right now pictures men when we talk about dark personalities. And I, I think we don't, we don't do a good enough job of being able to highlight these aspects in women in society because there are, there are dark personalities in men and there are darker personalities in women. just want to get your, your thoughts.

on where what it might look a little bit different for a woman with a dark personality compared to a man.

Karen (01:12:33.697)
Yeah, that's a good question. There's a couple of academics, one in particular who has done research into women different to men, but it's based on the attributes of psychopaths which were developed from an incarcerated, you know, populace. So I'm not sure how correct it is because, you know, my data shows new and different things. But what I would say from my data is

They're no different. They use the same attributes, same tactics. People say, yeah, women are more manipulative, but that's just a general statement. When you're looking at dark personalities, know, men and male and female dark personalities are equally destructive. I mean, I've had conversations with men who have been destroyed by a woman manipulating children or work circumstances or

it just, you know, it's and being sadistic with the children or other circumstances, religion, and so women do the same. They'll isolate someone, they'll, you know, lie, do the whole lying narrative. And I think, if you get a female dark personality who is lower functioning, lower intelligence, taking drugs, she's going to be more overt rather than covert, just like the men.

in terms of what she does to live out the control and the sadism and the brazenness. So we don't have enough data though for me to be able to say that definitely, but my data that I have and from this, I mean there is good data out there. It's just it's not as nuanced or comprehensive. Yeah, they are the same.

And you can see it in some public figures where they have isolated people, have gradually had full control over someone. And then you start to look for the other red flags. Two or three red flags don't make a dark personality either. I just want to say that. It's got to be, you know, there's all the attributes, there's the tactics and there's 20 attributes, the tactics and the red flags.

Karen (01:14:58.891)
And before I would say anyone is one, I'm very cautious about getting a huge amount of Yeah.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:15:02.828)
Yeah. I've, you know, I brought up this question because of course, as a clinical psychologist, I've worked with people who have been victims of dark personalities. And when you, see the difference sometimes for me with, with men and women is that, how important that first, you know, the, least that first year is of life. when a mother gives birth to a, to a baby, like that nurturing, that being able to attend to them.

that love, that connection to their baby, to know like different cries mean they're in pain. And when someone is emotionally detached and doesn't have empathy, the harm that they can do to developing young children from being a mother can be quite, quite damaging. And then you can see how that occurs, you know, throughout different years of your life, when you have a mother that gets some kind of joy out of control and sadism.

with children. Traditionally, women have been more, you know, had a more important role in raising and nurturing children. So you see that aspect. Also, you know, and this is something I wanted to bring up too, because you've mentioned this in your, in your work, you don't believe that borderline personality disorder, you know, exists. And I think all these DSM diagnoses are limited. But what happens is difficult people

when they're a man, they get labeled as anti-social. And then when they're a woman, they can be labeled as borderline personality disorder. And it's just a horrible label that doesn't encapsulate the trajectory of people's experiences. Like for example, I remember one particular client who confessed to me that she lied that...

that the guy that a guy she was dating raped her. And this person was kicked out of school, had charges brought against him, all because she, you know, felt kind of rejected that she lashed out. There was like a lack of empathy. She got something from the attention of identifying as a victim. And those things exist. And we see this in society. The focus does.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:17:27.95)
tend to go to men because of there's probably statistically more men than women who fall under this category and men's role in society as well as their aggressiveness, size, violence, all those things make us think about it. But this dark personality projects itself in different ways from a feminine. Thoughts?

Karen (01:17:56.676)
Well, the case you're talking about with that woman, who knows, she might not have been dark personality, she might not have been a victim of dark personality, it could have just been someone who was lonely and was, you know, so I don't like taking just one example of a behavior and then, put, but what I would say, because, you know, it's got to be the whole lot of behaviors to know what we're talking about here. And maybe they were there and it's hard to capture it in a discussion because this,

Sometimes it's death by a hundred cuts, you know, these people that are higher functioning do a whole lot of things. And if you say, they did this, you think, well, that's not too bad. But then if they did it a hundred times and all these other things a hundred times, over time it is. So it's hard to kind of explain to people how the high functioning ones actually cause such distress. I mean, they'll cause people to suicide with what they do. And my second book, after I the first one out,

is each chapter is going to be a different example of a dark personality and names taken out and context removed but samples of emails and texts and different sorts of you know conversations all in one so each chapter a person could go okay I can see how that will cause such you know harm in someone emotionally or mentally or whatever.

But it's to do that. yeah, well, what I would say is I said borderline personality doesn't exist in that it's that's my going back to the predator and the prey. When you look at the people who've been subjected to torture, which is not what any of the academics in this area have tended to do, it actually completely fits with what a dark personality does. The high functioning ones in particular.

And the behaviors that you see coming out in those that have been targeted by them are the same as victims of torture. So you get the nightmares and the triggers and all that sort of stuff. And it's very obvious. So someone said, well, it's useful to have something because they are those behaviors. But you might want to say it's a target syndrome. It's a syndrome of someone who's targeted.

Karen (01:20:19.009)
by a controller, whatever we're calling them, persistent predatory personality. Because otherwise it gives them no power to get out of that situation, calling them histrionic or borderline or…because it has such a terrible connotation. And it also puts the pressure back on the actual perpetrator rather than person who has been subjected to this. Now, you talked about parents.

you talk to kept talking about the mother having a father or a mother and some poor people have both that are dark personalities is probably the worst thing in the world that could happen to you particularly if you're usually the it's called the scapegoat child so the dark personality parent hates exposure does not love their own children

And if one of their own children starts to, at a young age, try and expose them for what they're doing, which might be sadistic behaviors with the siblings, et cetera, or if they're jealous of one of the children, they start to treat that child in the same way they would treat anyone else that they're targeting. They become sadistic with them, they demean, they undermine, and so you might have an eight-year-old getting all of this.

thrown at them, like undermining them to the rest of the family, separating them from the rest of the family. Not just the nuclear family, but the extended family, stopping them from seeing their friends, doing humiliating stuff. Like with school, maybe, let's say everyone has their hair down, for girls, it's the thing. Making them have their hair up with the ribbons and not letting them take them out.

You know, it's all this stuff that builds up. And a adult person, any parent can convince the rest of the family that this kid is bad, the scapegoat child. And so they're treated horrendously from a young age. It's hard to get out of that. And there's a lot of people, millions of people who have been subjected to that. Then you also get a child that's often the kind of, the one that the parent

Karen (01:22:38.487)
does the guilt trip with and must do everything. They're the ones that become very, the nice, the accommodators and they feel guilty if they don't take the parent on holidays as they get older or they become the child that's like the special child. They call it the golden child in the terminology. And so the golden child is also kind of then forced to

demonize the scapegoat child, the dynamic shocking where you get dark personalities as parents. So yeah, we should be helping these people rather than saying borderline or whatever it is. It's like, yes, they've been... But again, we haven't had the information to be able to do it. I'm hoping my information does help a lot with that. So yeah.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:23:31.458)
Yeah, my final statement here is I think there's going to be people who are going to also listen to this, maybe from a particular religious background or spiritual background. They're also going to see things in terms of kind of a spiritual warfare that's been prophesized and written about for centuries, that dark personalities are just, you know, evil, you know, personalities or evil spirits that can engage and there's some kind of battle that exists on earth.

And part of our, you know, part of our role as human beings incarnating into this physical world is that we have to face these things and through courage and love and compassion and all these things that we, you know, ultimately, you know, love and light and God is what prevails. Have you ever come at it from that spiritual perspective and have people brought that up to you?

Karen (01:24:31.287)
Yes, I do get asked that a lot and people comment on my socials on that. Just like politics, I prefer not to get into that because I want my work to be acceptable to everybody and or not acceptable but read by everyone and taken on board. So where there are views, strong views, I tend not to go there.

Yes, people do comment on and say that a lot too. Yeah.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:24:59.188)
Yeah, I think when you're a social scientist, it's important to take that stance that you're taking almost in a non biased neutral way when you're trying to rely on data and gather data and try to communicate that, you know, as clearly as you've been able to as your research has been able to reveal. And I think that came out like that came across today is that

a lot of what you were speaking to is what the data shows from your work. And I really do appreciate that. are people, if people wanna follow you, like for example, on X, for example, you're a great follow on X, but you're also writing book. How can people be aware of your work, get in touch or in the future be able to be aware when you're publishing something?

Karen (01:25:39.074)
Thank you.

Karen (01:25:49.164)
Yes, well yes on X or Twitter I am at Karen Mitchell allsmalls then underscore underscore. Until the book comes out the only thing is my PhD thesis and people look at the 570 something pages and have a heart attack that one what I would say is a lot of it is references but on my website so my it's Kalmore K-A-L-M-O-R.

calmore.com.au. Under the media section, there is a link to my PhD thesis. And I really encourage people to read it. Chapter two is fascinating. It covers all of the ways that research has not been helpful to us in this area. And in fact, some of my PhD research participants said, good luck, with what you're doing, because some of the key research is in the area.

in this field are themselves dark personalities and have actively prevented the data getting out there. And I must admit, it's been a bit of a journey in that regard. And I talk about that in the book. But yeah, so, and on my Twitter, the pinned post on my ex profile has a link to my PhD as well. I'm on LinkedIn. That's about it.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:27:11.361)
Okay.

Karen (01:27:15.019)
Yeah, I gotta get more out there, I know.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:27:15.326)
Go follow her at X and she posts in narrative form too. So it's not always just the, you know, the short statements that you can get on the old Twitter. There's a little bit more of a narrative and she explains and you can access her, her, her dissertation, her thesis. You can find that on, on X too. And that's where I found it. I even tried to pop it into, into AI to try to get some summaries, but it was too long for AI to even be able to.

Karen (01:27:43.683)
Sorry.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:27:44.59)
I'm very grateful for you coming on. Dr. Karen Mitchell, I want to thank you for a radically genuine conversation.

Karen (01:27:55.747)
Thank you for inviting me and it's been a pleasure to be on your show. Thanks so much, Roger.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:27:57.805)
Thank