172. Can Thoughts & Emotions Create Disease? Spontaneous Healing & Mind-Body Medicine w/ Dr. Moshe Daniel Block
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (00:01.314)
Welcome to the Radically Genuine Podcast. I am Dr. Roger McFillin. I want you to take a moment and picture a garden where every weed is immediately pulled. Every brown leaf instantly trimmed, every imperfection masked with artificial color and chemical sprays. On the surface, it looks perfect. A masterpiece of modern landscaping.
But beneath that manicured facade, the soil grows more depleted with each passing season. The beneficial insects have vanished, the natural cycles are disrupted, and the garden's vital messages go unheeded. Our bodies are much like this garden. When symptoms arise, could be anxiety, chronic pain, digestive issues, fatigue.
Modern medicine often treats them like unwanted weeds to be eliminated at all costs. We've become expert gardeners of suppression, armed with an arsenal of quick fixes, drugs, band-aid solutions, superficial thinking that make the surface look clean while the roots continue to wither.
But what if these so-called symptoms aren't weeds to be pulled, but rather signposts or signals pointing us toward deeper truths? What if that persistent anxiety isn't just some fundamental chemical imbalance, but your spirit's way of saying you've strayed from your path? What if that chronic pain isn't just physical wear and tear?
but the echo of emotional wounds still seeking acknowledgement. In our rush to create the perfect symptom-free existence, we've forgotten that healing isn't about achieving a state of flawless perfection. It's about understanding the wisdom encoded in our distress, reading the messages written in the language of our symptoms, and honoring the intricate connection between body, mind, and spirit.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (02:17.976)
Today we're going to explore what happens when we stop trying to maintain an artificially perfect garden and instead learn to read the messages our bodies have been trying to share with us all along. To have this conversation, I want to welcome Dr. Moshe Daniel Block, who is a naturopathic doctor, author, and innovator in mind-body medicine. He was able to achieve spontaneous healing from an autoimmune...
autoimmune disease, which influenced the VICE dialogue method, which I think we're going to spend a lot of time with today, a transformative mind-body healing technique that's helped thousands achieve life-changing results. I think it's our opportunity to get more in-depth about the mind, body, and spirit in healing, but also to discuss the current state of affairs in modern medicine and the shifts that occur
in our culture. You know, as we record today, know, Bobby Kennedy just got past the first stage in his confirmation process. So in some regards, there's there's hope there, because there's a conversation of a growing movement around health and the maha movement to make America healthy again. But is that a red herring in some areas? Should we be concerned about the limitations of such a conversation? And even some reductionist
models being reapplied to new ideas. I think I got the perfect guest for this today. Dr. Moshe, I want to welcome you to the Radically Genuine Podcast.
Dr. Moshe (03:57.392)
Hey, it's really great to be here. I love the intro. What a beautifully prosaic and profound way of introducing the topic. Well done. I'm honored to be here. Thank you.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (04:09.87)
It's so great to have you. I've been fascinated with your work, listening to you in other long form podcasts. I've read your book as a therapist, myself as a clinical psychologist, I'm interested in getting into some of these ideas, how they meld with some of my initial training, how they differ. And it's getting further into kind of this mind, body, spirit connection that exists. But let's start with your personal story.
kind of laid it out there in the introduction about your own experience with an autoimmune condition.
Dr. Moshe (04:42.258)
Yeah, for sure. It's actually 30 years ago now when I started to have symptoms. It was 1995 and I started to have symptoms of muscular weakness, droopy eyelids, difficulty swallowing, chewing, hard to get out of a chair. I was diagnosed with myasthenia gravis. It's a rare autoimmune condition where the nerves...
are basically bathed in autoimmune cells and so the messages from the muscles can't arrive. And it leads to paralysis and potentially death from suffocation with paralysis of the diaphragm. you know, people, some people are still passing away from it if they are not addressing or not able to address.
what it's really about. You know, that particular condition is in conventional medicine is called idiopathic, which means we have no idea how it is caused. And for me, idiopathic is, I appreciate that it's a sort of a humility of conventional medicine and saying, we don't know how this thing starts. And I have seen, you know, many, many cases over my 25 years of practice, and they're all different causes. So we can't say,
this is what causes myasthenia gravis, but we can definitely say in this case, we can understand what caused it. And in my case, the cause was a very harsh self-criticism based in the belief system that I needed to be perfect. And I received a dialogue, which I learned, you know, I basically learned it in an hour or two at the Options Institute. That's Barry Neal Kaufman's brainchild.
and his wife Samaria and they deal with autistic kids and they've just done amazing work. Their own child was autistic and they did amazing work to help them recover fully. So I learned this Optima Dialogue and I received it on myself.
Dr. Moshe (06:45.956)
And that's like by a series of questions, it got to this root statement that I wasn't even aware I was harboring in my subconscious that, well, because I need to be perfect. I heard myself saying that as a response to a question, which I don't even remember what it is now. And when I was at, then the next question was the life changer, what makes you believe you need to be perfect? And I,
Within the question was the answer. Like for me, it doesn't always work that way. Like some people will have a big struggle with the answer, even with the question and the answer, even though they know the answer is right. But for me in that particular time in my life, I was ready. know, the cap of the jar was ready to come off and I had a spontaneous healing. I could breathe. I could, my eyes open up. I could feel my arms and shoulders full of strength.
And I really had a spontaneous healing from realizing I didn't need to be perfect. And then I realized also that there was this cascade. It's sort of like a trigger response. You're not perfect. That's bad. Punish yourself. Stupid, stupid, some form of like a self attack. And that self attack was manifesting in my immune system as self attack, which is what I've seen in
The vast majority of almost every single case of autoimmune has some form of self-attack, harsh anger towards the self, guilt, shame, what's wrong with you? These questions that energies are turned against the person in emotional energies, mental energies, and then the body reflects that. So that's the experience that I had in healing, which has been life-changing and has been a guiding light for me ever since.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (08:30.286)
Hmm.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (08:39.374)
Can I ask how conventional medicine would treat that condition?
Dr. Moshe (08:44.176)
Yeah, that's a great question. Very bleak, very bleakly. So they're always sort of merging methods and what they recommend. But the main gist is immunosuppression. So prednisone as a treatment or immunosuppression with cell-sep or imuran.
And these are highly toxic drugs to the liver. They can cause liver cancer. They can just generally create quite a serious suppression of symptoms. Like prednisone is very global. It's a treatment. It's a drug that affects every cell in the body, basically. It's not specific at all. It's almost like dumping a whole pot of oil all over you because you have a teeny thing in your skin that you want to get some oil on or bathing in the oil.
And then Mestanon, or also called Pyridostigmine, it's an acetylcholine esterase inhibitor. So it's like the acetylcholine receptors of the cells are blocked by immune cells. So you could say there's not as many of them that are free. So the acetylcholine esterase is constantly acting on acetylcholine to remove it.
So this is a very roundabout way of treating the symptoms. So the drug, periodostigmine or a mesenon destroys or removes the acetylcholine esterase to allow acetylcholine to act longer. So you have more acetylcholine floating around.
And in an acute situation, does seem to help people. I mean, I'm grateful for it too. I took it for a period of my life when I first was very sick. I was in a band and we had a gig and I couldn't squeeze the guitar notes. I couldn't play. Like I didn't have strength to sing. So I took it that one day and I took it for about a week. It helped me play. We had a great gig. And then I stopped because I felt like my entire body was filled with cotton balls. I felt so blocked.
Dr. Moshe (10:52.358)
and it didn't feel very good. So those are some of the approaches. there's a strong rebound effect also with Mestanon that when you're on it, there's an added sensitivity to coming off of it and a great weakness that results when you come off of it.
Ironically also in myasthenia gravis, that drug is listed on the drugs that can cause myasthenia gravis. So that's a little head scratching or in high doses, it causes muscular weakness. So it has to be treated carefully. Another approach is a thymectomy, is a surgical removal of the thymus gland, which has the assumption that the thymus gland is creating
is something wrong with it that's creating immune cells that are faulty, that are attacking the body, rather than the awareness that those immune cells are receiving operatives from the higher centers of the intellect and the emotional field. Right? So it's, it's a vastly different mentality. Yeah.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (11:57.006)
So you were able to identify what we would call core beliefs. I'm just curious to know how you learned that and how you were able to come to that understanding that that belief in itself was what was driving the disease.
Dr. Moshe (12:12.367)
Yeah, well, I have everything to owe Barry Neal Kaufman because I was taking his program called Inward Bound and it was life changing. Within a half an hour, my whole life was changed. It's like I had found a treasure trove of pearls of wisdom and emeralds of knowledge around the discovery of belief systems.
It was very easy for me to grasp. was almost something that was just out of reach for my full understanding. But when I learned from him, I came to the understanding of beliefs. And then when I received this dialogue from not him, but one of the people that he had trained, it became evident to me that this belief was connected to a root cause of the illness. Because when the belief was resolved, when I no longer invested in it,
the symptoms improved. So there was a causal relationship between the belief and the symptoms.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (13:14.2)
Fascinating. want to have a quote here from your book. In time, as holism becomes more and more adopted by our world, many of the practices of modern medicine will be considered barbaric, much in the way that we now consider drilling holes in a person's head for headaches to be a rather misguided form of medicine. So let's just open that up to the evolution of Western medicine.
Dr. Moshe (13:18.385)
Sure.
Dr. Moshe (13:36.763)
Yeah.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (13:44.32)
and where we stand today. We have these outrageous rates of chronic disease. have a chronic disease epidemic. I think close to 60 % of the American public is overweight or obese. A large percentage of that population is on at least one pharmaceutical. In the mental health world,
Dr. Moshe (13:44.528)
Yeah.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (14:11.97)
We see somewhere of 20 % of females are taking an SSRI and every measurable outcome would suggest that we're becoming more sick, we're worsening. And that comes from a conventional allopathic approach to medicine. And what you're hearing from our government is we need more access, more access to the exact ideas and treatments that have been
killing our population for decades now. So let's just start with a very basic criticism of our healthcare system. And let's just build off of that because there's a number of transitions or evolutions that are occurring that include functional medicine. And so there's allopathic into functional, but there's also more holistic naturopathic medicine that you practice. Let's try to identify the differences.
Dr. Moshe (15:10.481)
Sure, sure, great question. So one of the main differences between how I operate, how I work, and between how functional medicine, allopathic...
medicine function has to do with the material only kind of approach in functional and conventional medicine. functional medicine is a step up from conventional medicine because it's looking at deeper causes. It's not addressing the root cause, which I have really seen from my 25 years of practice, my own experience and the patients that I've helped is in the mind.
That's the root cause. So there is a of a catchy phrase, trendy phrase to say that root cause medicine and functional medicine, it's not a true root cause. It's just a deeper approach. Instead of just looking to suppress symptoms, which is basically what conventional medicine does for chronic illness, suppression of symptoms, functional medicine is looking at the nutritional markers.
stomach acid levels, you know, by a lot like the the perhaps SIBO overgrowth of bacteria in the gut or not enough bacteria and different things like that nutritional markers like certain nutrients and stuff like that. But so this is this is a wiser approach and I would 100 % endorse any system that was shifting from
the conventional medical approach of suppression of symptoms to the functional medicine. think it's a good move, but that's not the end point. That's not where I'd like to see things going because functional medicine being material based excludes from the person's awareness, the importance of mental emotional state. Now, some practitioners do say, you know, you need to relax more and get out and meditate and that's
Dr. Moshe (17:12.591)
That's really good because that's bringing in an important element of, of for the individual that they need to approach. But there's a missing component that the person can come to understand in the model of what I call true holistic medicine is that when the body gets sick and it's like your garden metaphor, you know,
Really good. When the body gets sick, chronically, okay, there's a difference between chronic and acute, which we could dialogue about if you want. But when we're talking about chronic illness,
When the person, like the body has a natural innate ability to recover and to achieve equilibrium and harmony. When it's not, there's a block to that process of recovery. You you cut your skin and it heals. Should be the same thing with our, when we encounter difficulties in life, toxicity or colds or flus or injuries. If we're not recovering, there's something stuck in that person's vital energy and the vital energy responds to the
higher levels of the human being. We inhabit multiple bodies, you know, like we can't deny we have a mind. Well, what is the mind? Is it just simply the activity of the brain? I don't think so. I think it's actually a body.
mental body, which is very subtle in nature and very powerful in nature. And then we have an emotional field and that emotional field informs, so the mind informs the emotional field, the emotional field informs the vital field, and then the vital field will reflect into the body's state of being, whether it's health or disease from the blockage. If there's a chronic illness, it shows that there is something for that person to understand about themselves. It's actually the most
Dr. Moshe (19:01.765)
beautiful and poignant way for a person to evolve in their soul, in their spirit, towards their true nature. And I consider our true nature to be children of the divine, children of God, children of the creator, what have you, the one spirit, whatever you want to call it. And so our task is to rekindle, remember, return to that state.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (19:10.766)
Hmm.
Dr. Moshe (19:29.123)
and illness is a great opportunity. It's a wake up call for many of us to look at who we are. And you know, there's different approaches to that. You could just detoxify and improve your symptoms. You can get better nutrients and that will be a good step towards helping the body. But are we actually understanding ourselves better at that deeper level?
I'm a real fan of that. I feel like that's really important in our medicine, that our medicine can reflect our true nature in the sense that it's a call for us to return when we're out of alignment. Yeah, yeah.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (20:11.96)
So I've heard you speak about the privilege of illness, and that's a real shift in consciousness, right? So I'm a big believer that we are creators of our own reality, that, you know, what we do hold in consciousness becomes real to us, and we manifest that into the physical world. And so, in that respect, the idea of seeing us as vulnerable to illness, as broken, as diseased, and then having to externalize that.
Dr. Moshe (20:30.885)
Yes.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (20:41.944)
to go to a doctor, to seek out a pill, something that is outside of us. From that perspective then, we could actually come to the conclusion that we are making ourselves sick culturally by the manner in which we think about health.
Dr. Moshe (21:00.036)
Yeah, wow. Yeah, that's profound. 100 % from from being empowered to recognizing all, all healing ability.
resides within to externalizing ourselves and putting ourselves in the hands of a profession that doesn't take into account our true nature, doesn't really look at or have any kind of investigation towards, what, how are you feeling about this? When did this start? What were you going through? What is this about for you? Rather than just look at the symptoms and offer a solution.
I do want to give props to the conventional model for something that is is very valuable for and I think we'll always need that. It's for heroic emergency medicine. when when the symptoms are so severe that they can kill the person, then we have to address the symptoms. We have to like it's a train that's out of control. We have to we have to harness that in. Otherwise, the bacterial infection or the fever or
Perhaps the injury will kill the person and you know life is a very important principle in medicine being alive staying alive and When we're very very acutely sick, we need that and I think I think conventional medicine probably has the best Department for that in many ways We do in naturopathic medicine. We do have ways of treating acute
illness, but there are certain levels of acute illness that I'll refer to the emergency room. You know, especially with like, I don't know, I know this is an extreme example, but a person could be bleeding out.
Dr. Moshe (22:45.938)
Severely, you know, if it's a minor bleed out, have tools, know, their phosphorus is really good. Cicali is really good for postpartum bleeds for women. And, you know, you could even put cayenne pepper on the wound and that will really significantly slow the blood. But if it's severe, we need that. Okay. So I just want to give props where props is due. And I think that, I think there might be ways of doing it, which is less toxic and stuff like that. honestly,
if they can save your life and you get a little toxic from it, right? Like, I think it's okay. So.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (23:22.254)
Yeah, and I think the greater question that exists in our culture right now is how do we prevent chronic disease? How do we live longer, healthier, more fulfilling lives? Like how do we restore health? And our system is really not about that. It's about just treating that disease state in ways that we now know are actually creating chronic health conditions, just the ideas themselves.
Dr. Moshe (23:31.109)
Yes, yes.
Dr. Moshe (23:42.49)
Absolutely. The Nutritional Institute of America did like a seven-year study in because when we talk statistically everybody says on the number one cause of disease is heart disease, but it's not true. The number one cause of death in America is heart disease. Sorry, that's what I meant. That's not true. After the Nutritional Institution of America determined that it was actually iatrogenic illness, which is
illness caused by medicine. So death by medicine is number one. And it's an uncomfortable statistic, but a lot of people do die. And if we consider the extreme measures and absolutely unverified, unscientific approaches in last few years during the pandemic, we can add a lot of numbers to that number of people, you know, per year that are
passing away at the hands of conventional medicine or medicine in general, but that is generally conventional medicine. It's very, very, very, very rare that somebody dies as a result of alternative medicine, extremely rare. And when it happens, all hell breaks loose. It's like, it's not safe. there's a lot of demonization of it immediately and so hypocritical, incredibly hypocritical.
So I really think that if we were to harness from a young age the mentality of inquiry, you know, I'm not feeling well, what's going on there for you little Timmy? Sally, what are you feeling in there? What's going on?
I feel sad about mom and dad. Okay, tell me like to learn from a start, like just as a matter of fact, that when you feel bad emotionally and physically, that there's an invitation there for inquiry. If that if that if we could introduce that to kids in elementary school and just like naturally nurture that we would have a completely different society.
Dr. Moshe (25:47.85)
because people would be looking for answers before they're going for the pill to remove the manifestation of the disease. Yeah.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (25:52.238)
Hmm.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (25:58.636)
Yeah, so from this perspective, emotions, for example, thoughts itself too, are vital energy sources, right? mean, emotions is literally energy in motion, right? And so emotion is something that is extremely critical to our well-being and health and it gets designed for us. It is a signal, it's transformative in nature. So if we suppress that emotional state,
Dr. Moshe (26:09.818)
Right.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (26:23.808)
or we try to deny it, avoid its presence in our life. And we do that in so many different ways from turning to drugs, alcohol, to the way we try to think about something, to blocking it out of our conscious awareness. There's all of these ways that we are avoiding that full experience. And I see in our culture right now is there's almost a demonization of emotions, right? We're talking about them as symptoms of disease.
that you need to take a pill to blunt or not experience. And I don't think people fully understand how impairing that is. And that in itself is creating sickness.
Dr. Moshe (27:03.023)
Yeah, that's amazing. Very, very true.
Yeah, you know, even culturally, you'll see, you'll see people get very uncomfortable when somebody is being emotional publicly, or in the workplace, like the corporate workplace, there's no room for emotion. It's very intellect driven, very will driven. And there's no room for somebody being emotional, which I kind of understand. From the perspective of like the purpose of the business is to be productive. It's not to, you know, get in touch with your feelings. Like maybe we, on it.
leave too much room for that in business, to at least, if you're at a party and you're getting tearful, everybody rushes to comfort that person right away and rub them on the back. I cringe at that behavior because if somebody's expressing emotion, give them space, let them have that experience. The people that rush to the person that's expressing emotion to comfort them immediately,
are usually not comfortable with the expression of the emotion themselves. So I do think that, you know, the emotional field is so powerful. I mean, when you're angry, I've experienced this in myself, like the amount of strength that could come from that anger, destructive strength, or protective strength, like a mama bear, you know, lifting up a car to get her kid out from under the car or something.
The amount of power of that energy in motion, of that emotion is huge.
Dr. Moshe (28:42.126)
What's a bit of a paradox is that the root cause of illnesses in the mind in the belief system But around the belief system an emotional field is formed. We could call it a negative emotion which reflects the belief So let's say I believe I'm not good enough, which is the number one belief really for all of us in America Not good enough. I'm not worth it. I'm not valuable enough. I have to do something external
to myself, to my appearance, to my job, to how much money I'm making in order to be enough. This is the primary mover of belief systems. So let's say I have that belief, the emotional field will reflect that. I will not feel good enough about myself. So that emotional feeling becomes a well or a sponge, if you will, to absorb negative energies that then
compound on each other and create these these stratified field like these layers of emotional field. So when a person discovers, when I take them through their process of discovery of their false belief and they get to I'm not good enough
And I asked them, do you want to keep living that way? They say, no, but, and the but is that they feel the realism so much of the fact that they believe that they're not good enough. So how they feel doubled down, doubles down on the belief and it confirms it. I don't feel good enough.
I don't believe I'm good enough, ergo, I'm actually not good enough. I actually believe it. So when they start to intellectually be aware of the belief, the emotional field is the stuck problem. That's the step that needs to be addressed.
Dr. Moshe (30:32.105)
And so that's what I'll work with people in embracing and examining all the different levels of the emotional field that have tendrils that are sticking that field, emotional and mental, and sticking it to them.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (30:48.524)
Now I've had other podcast guests who've talked about this in terms of cancer and the cancer epidemic and that there's, you know, Germanic healing approaches and very strong evidence that, you know, some people have been told in conventional medicine that they're in stage four cancer and there's nothing they can do, have entered into alternative ways of approaching this from an emotional perspective and have found a way to heal themselves.
Dr. Moshe (31:10.926)
Yeah.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (31:18.446)
Luke 17, verse 21, the kingdom of heaven is within you. I just want to get a sense of what that means to you in the way that you practice.
Dr. Moshe (31:29.381)
Yeah, I love that. That's the heart of it all. Kingdom of heaven lives within you. So, yes, very good. So basically the principle of the kingdom of heaven is the divine state, the state of godliness, God.
from one way to express that because it is a mystery. When the Tao says that it cannot be defined or explained, it can only be experienced, it's true. And even the Judeo-Christian path will say that it's a great mystery. However, I do agree with the Taoist that it can be experienced, but it's hard to explain. So let's just point to it a little bit with different principles. So I like the term I am. When Moses is in
When Moses before the burning bush he asks that Manifestation of God what what is your name that I can tell the children of Israel that I met so-and-so and the answer is a yasha a in the Hebrew which means I shall be as I shall be or Simplified I am that I am so this state of I am this pure beingness is The is this the beingness that underlies all of creation
It underlies physical, vital, emotional and mental. It is the substrata that we fall into, which is a misnomer, but we recognize we are always, we cannot not be this state of beingness. It's always with us. It is us.
So that state of I am is unconditionally okay. It always has been and always will be and always was. There's never, this is mind blowing. I'll be in bed with my kids and we're trying to go to bed and out of the darkness I'll hear one of their cute voices go, but daddy, who created God?
Dr. Moshe (33:33.764)
And I think this is an amazing concept to ask because it's a great question. And I believe the answer is it's the greatest mystery of the eternal nature of the divine. It's never not been.
It was never created. It is the very nature of is-ness. The mind goes like, can't take this because it needs a beginning and an end. And the mind works on this principle of rationality. And that's a fine thing, except there is a place where that ends and where this is-ness, this I am-ness begins. And it is beyond the conditions of the mind.
And so it is when I work with people, we work under this premise that the kingdom of heaven lives in you, that I am is your very nature and you are unconditionally okay, although you may have forgotten so, you you may have attached yourself to certain things you believe you need as conditions to be happy, healthy, loved and successful. And all of those are
illusions that we adopt to survive our world, to try to survive and to try to thrive, I should say. But ultimately, when in our evolution, to return to that full awareness of the self, which it is, was, and shall always be, we have to let go of the conditions that we've come to believe are necessary for our happiness and our well-being.
And those are the belief systems that we carry. So when we carry a belief, it acts as a rub against the true nature of the foundation of who we are. King of heaven, I am that I am. And then it causes friction in the energy field, which trickles down the waterfall into the physical body.
Dr. Moshe (35:34.115)
and through all the bodies, first emotionally, then vitally, and then you feel low energy and then you start to get stiff and then maybe illness or you get weak. All the different ways that these things can manifest.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (35:47.874)
Have you ever read the A Course in Miracles?
Dr. Moshe (35:50.574)
Yes, I have. have. Funny, a dear friend of mine, Alex, is actually presently reading it and we're like reviewing it a little bit together.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (36:00.066)
Yeah, there's the one sin that exists is the illusion that we are all separate and that we are separate from God. And in some ways you're saying that is the root of disease. And then our survival mind, which is here to keep us alive in the body and that is exposed to the matrix that exists is forming these fundamental beliefs of separateness and achievement and who we are separate from our true nature. And so...
Dr. Moshe (36:05.571)
Yeah. Yeah.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (36:29.09)
There's a lot of we have to get into some practical aspects of the work that you do, because they're not that dissimilar from the work that I do. And so it's often dealing with the power of the mind. And so here's a quote from your book, in understanding the faithful puppy dog concept, right? The body is a faithful puppy dog to the mind. When the mind says sit, the body sits. It is a one to one relationship and often
after the physical symptoms of the disease are explored in depth, there can be seen such an accurate reflection between the physical system symptoms and the belief systems that led to those, those symptoms. So, you know, the power of the mind, I do, I do some work with, with clients who have, you know, experienced sexual trauma, for example. And there are beliefs that have arisen in response to that trauma.
Dr. Moshe (37:19.536)
Yeah.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (37:27.008)
Some of those are like self blame. I could have done or should have done something to prevent it. Others are around their worthiness. And then there's others around like safety and security. And then there the overactive mind is begins to try to prevent such an experience again. And the most challenging thing that I come across in working with somebody who's adopted those belief systems is how
Dr. Moshe (37:27.045)
Yes.
Dr. Moshe (37:34.032)
Right.
Dr. Moshe (37:37.989)
Yes.
Dr. Moshe (37:48.815)
Yes.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (37:56.906)
strongly they are attached to them as a survival mechanism. Even though they're living, they're suffering and they're living in great anxiety and sleep disturbance and an inability to connect and be vulnerable, attach emotionally with others. There's something within their nervous system that is overreacting saying that I'm keeping you alive by keeping your mind and holding on to these beliefs.
Dr. Moshe (38:01.541)
Yes.
Dr. Moshe (38:23.771)
Yes.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (38:23.958)
And I almost always see the manifestation of disease, as does the, you know, the medical system. And they don't understand the root causes. And these can be, you know, young men or young women in their 20s or early 30s who are developing all types of conditions, including autoimmune conditions. And their lifestyle, their history, their background isn't even investigated. It's not even put into the conceptualization. So,
Dr. Moshe (38:52.837)
That's right.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (38:53.198)
from your model of working with someone from a naturopathic approach, how then would you work with somebody who is living that type of life post trauma?
Dr. Moshe (39:06.265)
Yeah, for sure. I actually have had quite a few cases of sexual abuse as well, rape, know, and ongoing sexual abuse, childhood abuse and stuff like that. And exactly what you said, a belief system is derived from it. So the actual abuse itself is horrible, unpleasant, but it's not the problem. The problem is what the person takes from the situation.
So in your examples, I've seen that and I've also seen other examples like there could be a conflict between the appreciation, there's like an appreciation of the attention and there could even be a sexual arousal around this very inappropriate expression of sexuality and then this horrible feeling like this is wrong.
and it's totally in it conflicted and the person doesn't know what to do with the conflict so they stuff it and then that conflict will manifest as tension as insomnia as whatever
there's lots of different things that that could do. So what I would like to do and what I do do with the people I work with is I just ask them for permission, very important obviously, can we go there? We don't want you to necessarily relive the trauma, but we have to go there and to see what is dwelling in your system, in your mental, emotional field around this. Because it could be very, very empowering.
for the person and they could really let go of it in one session.
Dr. Moshe (40:38.35)
One session is what it could take. And now I'm not saying that's what, you know, I guarantee one session. No, because some can take many sessions, right? But I've seen a massive improvements from recognizing the truth. You know, the expression, the truth shall set you free. And that is the case when the person realizes what they've been doing to themselves and they realize they don't have to. In other words, they are shown or they've come to the awareness that they're making a choice. It's very important.
Whenever I get anywhere with someone, want them to be clear. I ask them a question, do you want to keep living this way after they understand how they're living, right? And then the answer is no. Sometimes it's no, heck no, and I'm done and they're clear and they're free. And sometimes it's no, but, and then we have to really open that up and see what are all these points of resistance to that awareness.
I worked with a young woman in her 30s who had been raped and she had developed from this anxiety and kind of a bipolar state.
What it came down to was, again, the rape itself is horrible, but that's not what she took from it. What she took from it was that she didn't say anything and she thought that she was weak and she was punishing herself for that, blaming herself for being weak and not doing anything. When we went back into the situation and I asked her about it, she realized that she had intuitively felt that if she had said anything, she could have been killed and that was the real deal.
And so she forgave herself and realized she made the right choice. And she let go of all the baggage that came from judging herself as weak in that situation. That was her freedom point. And so we need to be brave, like very gentle and compassionate.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (42:27.47)
Hmm.
Dr. Moshe (42:47.548)
but also very brave in going in there with the person, like the willingness to go back there and to determine what is the thing that is at the problem. It's never, I don't wanna say it's never, because it's involved, that the rape itself or the ongoing sexual abuse is involved, but it's, again, it's what the person takes from it.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (43:09.442)
Yeah, you've mentioned that the ego has to let go of all control, which is really difficult for someone post-trauma because that control is to try to keep them safe. Right? So you bring up some really important points around forgiveness, around letting go, a concept of surrender, right? And that is like...
Dr. Moshe (43:20.326)
Yes.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (43:34.23)
some of the greatest challenges. I'm curious to know that in your style of working with somebody, how do you get someone to see themselves within their true nature? Because some of this is a fundamental trust to that true nature where, you know, some people feel like they were not protected or they were even abandoned by God. There's so many complex aspects to this.
to get someone to live more in the flow, more naturally, more in the now, think, which is what we're trying to do is get people to be almost detached from that ego and distant from that mind. And to be connected to that true nature also means that there is a really important purpose of their life and their soul incarnated into this body for particular reasons. And in that, they're trying to have to make sense about what just happened to me. You know, why would that happen? What is my purpose here? What is my meaning?
Dr. Moshe (44:27.695)
Right. Amazing. Okay, so let me address each of these points. The control is to try to keep them safe, 100%. The belief system is to keep them safe. Very often belief systems are derived from aspects of the child's life that they can't explain. They don't understand why their parents are cruel to them.
they don't understand why they're being left and neglected. They can't wrap their head around it because I don't know if you remember what it's like to be a little kid. I have memories also through my kids. They remind me of how I used to feel as a child. So there's just this outpouring of love. Kids are pretty loving and that's their model of reality. coming, very recently from the womb and from the womb of God, you know, both. And they have this
this premise of love. So when the parents aren't acting that way, they can't understand it. And they don't, there's a level of innocence where the child doesn't know how to go and say, the parents have the problem. So they can't control what's happening at the parental level, but they can blame themselves. They can make themselves wrong.
So the parents are neglecting them. They're hateful, they're judgmental, they're controlling, or they're just cruel. And the child says, well, I don't understand that, but it must be me. I must be the reason that they're treating me this way. That is the dawning of so many of our false beliefs, is that very predicament. I just don't get what's happening to me. I need this belief system to explain it. And that belief system becomes...
the savior in that moment to justify, but it's actually what ends up killing that person because they've derived such a false idea about themselves, which is not right, but it does help them wrap their mind around and have control. And then they need to control that narrative too. So control stems from that same situation. And so the control does keep them safe. So the way to help the person let go of that
Dr. Moshe (46:42.232)
is to go down deeply and to inquire whether or not that control is actually serving them to do what they think it is supposed to be doing.
And when the person realizes that the belief, you know, what they're doing, the behavior around it is actually not accomplishing the goal and it's hurting them because they can see that readily that it's hurting them. Then the heart can start to let go of the attachment to that belief.
But when the heart is attached to something because it values that thing, it believes that it's serving, it's very hard to get a person to let go. They won't change that belief. They might intellectually say, yeah, okay, I know it's not right for me to think I'm not respected. I know I don't want to think that anymore, but the heart is going, yeah, yeah, you need that to survive. So we really have to get the person into their...
state of awareness and by asking questions, by getting them to explore their life and the result of this belief to get them to divest from it in that it's not actually doing what you think it's supposed to be doing. like, yeah, I'll just give an example. Like,
I need to protect my dad from his poor ways of living. I love him, I'm responsible for him, I'm carrying him, I take a lot of baggage and I have a very negative attachment. Negative in the sense it's very deprecating for me as a person. This is an example, I'm not speaking of, although this could possibly apply to me too.
Dr. Moshe (48:27.793)
When the person is asked, how's that working out? You know, is this helping your dad? The answer almost invariably is no, actually nothing's changing. You know, I'm carrying all this weight in this baggage trying to carry my dad's negativity for him. It's not helping.
So that's an example of carrying a belief or this feeling that's not even working. So that helps a person see, they have to see the truth. That's what I meant before, but the truth will set you free. So when they see that truth, it helps them release the attachment to that.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (49:03.182)
There was a time in my life that I really believed I was addicted to thinking. loved thinking. I loved thinking. I loved creating scenarios. loved predicting ahead and problem solving. I think I had my life mapped out in my mind already. And it, it wasn't until I learned that that was all an entire creation that was self-limiting essentially.
Dr. Moshe (49:08.177)
addicted to thinking. OK, good, good. Yeah, me too. I love that.
Dr. Moshe (49:24.794)
Mmm.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (49:33.504)
and found meditation and found ways to really kind of connect within and move away from that mind. Did I learn that there was truth and there was wisdom and there was intelligence that was much greater than what my mind could ever create? And what I'm finding in clinical practice is that many standard therapies and therapists
just try to solve more thinking problems with more thinking. It becomes this intellectual exercise and evaluation and prediction and judgment and all these things. And so I've been outspoken that, you conventional therapies and the mental health industrial complex may do more harm than good because of our cultural and society addiction to thinking, which is one of the more challenging things about working with my clients because
there's this function that it's serving of safety and control. So my question is how important is it for us as a culture or for in our work, in our healing, to be able to quiet that mind in order to spend time of kind of withdrawing within and to be more connected to what I believe is God and sometimes the messages received in that state
You know, if I talked about it conventionally in like psychiatric practices, they would think I might be delusional. But the truth of the matter is, is that I can come out of a meditation with a knowing or a direction that I never had prior to entering into it. So actually moving away from that addiction of the mind got me closer to a level of intelligence that I think is much greater than I ever could have accessed in that thinking world.
Dr. Moshe (51:23.355)
Yeah, that's amazing. It also dovetails nicely with this idea that from the Course in Miracles, the original sin is believing that we're separated from God.
So if we believe we're separated from God, we have to find all the answers to ourselves. We have to be thinking up the answers. know, versus letting go and letting God or stilling the mind, going into stillness when the answer presents itself, it's right there, because the answer is there, because God is all giving, all creativity, all answers. And when we step out of thinking we need
to will ourselves into the answer by thinking a lot, for example, then it's just right there. It will present itself. And the more we do that, the more you kind of have faith in your experience of that and the less you need to think. Think up your solutions and just sort of maybe ask the question, what do I do about this? What is my approach here?
and sort of wait for the answer to come in clarity, full crystal clarity in the form of a download where, you know, like the expression of picture is worth a thousand words. Well, an intuitive download is worth maybe 10,000 words of teaching, of knowledge, of knowing. So yeah, think stillness is...
Such an important thing. I don't know if you can see this right here in my camera. says, be still and know that I am God, right? From the Psalms. What Psalm is that? always forget. Psalm 46, 10. Be still and know that I am God. So the I am can only be experienced beyond the mind through an experience of beingness.
Dr. Moshe (53:24.463)
And then the mind, you know, the mind can be involved in the witnessing of that. The mind is a beautiful tool that swings both ways. It can swing into heaven, swing into hell. There's a Israeli healer who wrote a book called The Mind is the Healer, The Mind is the Killer. So the mind heals, the mind kills, depending on how we apply it. It swings both ways.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (53:44.462)
Hmm.
Dr. Moshe (53:51.314)
And so like when we're in a state of stillness, the mind is still, but it's still witnessing. It's still part of the observer of the oneness. The oneness itself is only experienced through that, but then we still inhabit in our egos, you know, for the time that we're allotted on this earth to live within our egos.
the mind is still at play and so are the emotions and so is the body. I when one experiences this oneness there could be a temptation to just you know pack up and go into a cave and have nothing else to do with humanity which
I'm not a big fan of that approach, although I do understand it. I still think it's a little bit to use a Steiner's model of Ahriman and Lucifer. I don't know if you're familiar with this, but Rudolf Steiner basically defines the Luciferic as fleeing from the material, like just abandoning it. All I need is spirit.
It's all spirit and everything else is illusion. And the aromonic is to deny spirit. And it's a major problem today on the planet is the aromonic. But the luciferic is to deny the physical. So come back. That's what I'm saying. Go ahead.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (55:04.078)
Can you see?
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (55:09.838)
Yeah, I think you bring up a really good point around the denial of the spirit, because I think we're in, you know, very treacherous times, where on one end, there is a transhumanist anti-human movement that exists, that really is, you know, demonizes, for the lack of a better word, our humanness, our nature, our divine nature, almost as if we're, you know, a flawed species that needs to be upgraded with technology.
And in a lot of, a lot of ways that does drive modern medicine, you know, right now, you know, even in this first, or the, the, the first few weeks of the Trump administration, we see that there is a, um, a private part, public partnership with the development of AI. And they're already talking about, um, the use of mRNA technology and vaccinations for cancer, for example. So we're falling into the same kind of.
Dr. Moshe (55:40.432)
Yeah.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (56:09.774)
paradigm problems that have existed in the material, you know, that they can use technology in some ways to prevent us from the sickness, from the disease, creating a reliance on that technology on the external away from our own divinity. And I see that as a potential threat to all of humanity. That's the same thing exists this anti human trans humanist movement in
Dr. Moshe (56:20.111)
Yeah.
Dr. Moshe (56:32.506)
yeah.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (56:38.05)
you know, psychiatry and mental health, where you are saying like the natural emotional experiences of living, even the painful ones, like there is some utopia that could exist where if we lessen them, we have a greater existence, we have a better experience, where it's a brave new world, it's very dystopian, instead of understanding that the point of all this is, in order to go through those challenges, that they work almost in
Dr. Moshe (56:53.307)
Like a brave new world.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (57:05.742)
polarity to each other, like there's a dialect that exists in life, like to truly love is also to experience loss and pain, and these emotions are absolutely necessary. So we see this in the disease of modern culture, where we have this comfort, you know, and we see what happens when everything is provided without work. There is almost like an emptiness that exists when we're, when we can get
pornography or, you know, food that is chemically engineered to hijack the brain. Relationships are from a distance and the use of technology to have more superficial relationships, you know, like without the struggle, without the work, you know, we see an emptiness that exists, like there is no prompts, like technology cannot serve God, cannot be God. And so I think this
opens up a really important dialogue for us when the denial of the spirit, as you said, is something that is like critical for our time and dangerous.
Dr. Moshe (58:09.637)
Yeah. And you know, one of the big trends is going around today is longevity. So you could technologically, scientifically perform longevity on the body. Then there are masters who have natural longevity through very advanced spiritual states of consciousness where the body comes into obeisance with the one will, with the will of the divine.
And like the Chinese call it Xian, H-S-I-E-N, I have no idea if I'm pronouncing that correctly, I've only read it. And you see in yogis and the masters of Rinpoche, know, and the Tibetan masters, they will achieve physical immortality. You know, when we say immortality, they're living hundreds and hundreds of years, up to a thousand years, maybe more. I call that immortality. I'm not talking about millions of years of life because, you know, people like to move on at a certain point.
But imagine contrasting a human being who is attaining longevity from
natural means, real means, by understanding the divine, because the divine itself is immortal and that trickles down into the different bodies that we inhabit. So we get a kind of immortality or longevity versus, you know, injecting ourselves in mRNA or like different scientific measures and the person is divorced from their divine self, but yet their body is like youthful.
One of the things that I find interesting is that as a man, I'll use the word man specifically, ages, his body weakens. And when his body weakens, he loses the cocksure-ed-ness of his youth that comes from strength of the body, but which is a little bit myopic and superficial as a confidence in himself.
Dr. Moshe (01:00:05.027)
It's sort of confidence in strength rather than in wisdom. So as the body ages and weakens, let's say to a certain degree, that's when a man and of course a woman too, it's a little different for the woman's evolution. So for a man as his body weakens, he comes into wisdom because he can't rely on the strength of his body anymore. So imagine if we contrast that principle with a person who is through
technological means, let's say injections of different formulas and different, even, you know, drugs or even different herbal preparations that can, you know, trigger the immortal gene or whatever these technologies are doing. And that person hasn't come into any wisdom that creates such a schism of confidence.
in like, where's the confidence coming from? It's coming entirely from the ego. And that's the kind of person who can be become a tyrant or, or in a, you know, a psychopath or sociopath where they have such confidence in themselves, but it's not derived from their true nature, which they, they have, but just from some superficial and artificial means. the whole trans humanism thing is, is worrisome.
I also sympathize with the American push right now with Trump's administration to be competitive with some of the other countries in the world because AI is so powerful that countries that are adopting it, and this is true for businesses too, if you're not adopting it, depending on what business you have, honestly, you could compete.
in some businesses, you don't need AI, but on the, like on the, on on the government level, in terms of security and, and intelligence, right, to not develop AI. mean, it would be all night. It would be nice if we had a true United nations and we all were singing kumbaya, but I don't think that that's true yet. And there's still this vying for power, which comes from the not so godly energies of the planet.
Dr. Moshe (01:02:25.273)
So I think it's wise to, you know, like trust in God, but pay your taxes. Well, what we could say is trust in God, but develop AI. I don't think AI itself is evil, but it could certainly be adopted for that with like, without a skip of a heartbeat, like very quickly, it can go into that.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:02:49.128)
It could be used a tool, a tool of evil, depending on, you know, who has control over it. Or a tool for good.
Dr. Moshe (01:02:54.116)
Yes. Yes. Or a tool for good. It could be used as a tool for good. Like the medicine, doesn't have to be, you know, engineering mRNA. It could be really, really advanced, like with, you know, access to all the materials and all the publications of all knowledge. you know, a person says, this is what I have XYZ and it spits out a very accurate diagnosis. It could be used for the good.
I even think, you know, for alternative medicines, we can organize our knowledge of herbal medicine and homeopathy and have access at our fingertips to really good recommendations from it. Whatever tool that we use, we need to be in control of it. We need to be the governors, not...
subservient to that because that would be horrible if we become subservient to the artificial intelligence that we created, which is what a lot of the movies have sort of like predictively programmed, like The Matrix and movies like that, iRobot. They've put that out into the field. So there is a legit concern there, Roger. I agree with that. I do.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:04:07.118)
So Robert Kennedy Jr. is nominated to run the most powerful health organization in the most powerful country on earth. And he is the first guy who is least bringing attention to the corruption, the industry capture of our regulatory bodies, and how commonly used interventions in allopathic medicine questioning
their scientific validity and the fact that they could be creating harm. He's the first person who's really bringing attention to that, the most powerful, of course, and he might now be in a position to run our health agencies. Let's first start with where can we be optimistic in that, but I wanna also counterbalance it with any concerns that you might have since you practice from a completely separate perspective.
Dr. Moshe (01:05:00.209)
Sure, sure. Well, we can rejoice, you know, when Bobby, when Robert F. Kennedy is getting up there and he's talking to the American people about simple things like the dyes that are put in food, like yellow dyes, blue dyes, red dyes. These things are horrible for the children. When the kids eat that, they become like insane little
devils like monsters it really irritates their nervous system and then they get put on Ritalin or you know different drugs for ADHD.
There's a terrible cascade that happens from the lack of awareness of how the food industry, not all of it, because there is some of it that's moving in towards health, but the majority of the food industry, when you go to your general supermarkets, just a basic level of terrible ingredients in regular foods that don't require it. There's so many foods that don't require the addition of sugar.
poor choices of oils and then adding dyes, like adding food coloring that are cytotoxic. They're neurotoxic, they're toxic to the cells. So I'm hugely encouraged by Make America Healthy Again. I think it's a sign of beautiful times to come. And, you know, I'll just throw out there, I'm concerned that...
You know, there could still be an agenda with this administration. I do support this administration on just about everything. I'm watching them with my grateful eye and I'm watching them with my suspicious eye. I'm not ready to say that we're all there yet. There's certain things that I'd like to see. Like I'm concerned that this annexing of Canada and Mexico and Greenland might be a part of something that has been predicted for decades around the Amero, creating the Amero as a step in the direction of
Dr. Moshe (01:06:58.829)
the new world order, you know, we have, we have the euro already and then next step is a marrow and then, well, maybe we'll have the Afro. I don't know why the Afro that sounds funny, but the, the unification of Africa and Asia. And then it's just the next step is the, the, you know, central bank, one world order. And that's really what it seems like some powers that are, that are, you know, operating on this planet are trying to move us toward, nevertheless,
I still am very encouraged, like there was talk about removing fluoride from water in America. my gosh, just that impact alone. Fluoride is a intelligence suppressor and it's carcinogenic and it's neurotoxic and all this stuff. It's a horrible toxin for people to be ingesting regularly in their drinking water. To drink fluoride is...
It'd be like, might as well take a bunch of arsenic and put it in and drink. Well, that's going to have an immediate killing effect on you, but it's a slow death with fluoride. So that's very encouraging too.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:08:05.998)
Do you question whether these are intentional acts? Knowing what we know about these dyes and processed food, sugar, fluoride, glyphosate. One would have to step back and think that it's intentional to kill us or create disease.
Dr. Moshe (01:08:21.875)
yeah, yeah, that's right. we could let let's let's take a mild approach to criticizing that as just simply being for the bottom dollar for profit. So you're let's say your industry, the big pharma profits off the illness of people. So why are we going to make them sick? Well,
We could take these dyes or we could take the byproducts of certain mining industry and we could, well, how are we going to dump them? They're toxic. Well, let's just put them in the food and the water supply. That's mind boggling. And the way RFK talks about that, I love it. It makes my heart swell with gratitude that here's a politician on public...
platforms talking about these things openly. And he is in many ways the real deal. He's been litigating as a lawyer against big pharma and Monsanto and these big industries that have no care for humanity whatsoever. So yeah, I mean, I do see this as being, we could say, well, it's just greed, right?
that's a mild form of criticism. Then we could say, well, maybe there is another level where there are powers that be that would like to divide and conquer, like to keep people small, unhealthy and stupid. know, our programming on television and the movies and entertainment and music, it's all part of this. Keeping...
people, definitely in America, it's quite strong in America, keeping people small, believing that they have no power over their health, drinking stuff and eating stuff that's diminishing their intelligence, and watching media that is just really, really low, low IQ levels, just assuming that people don't understand.
Dr. Moshe (01:10:34.221)
or don't see the schisms. Like there's a lot of schisms in the way things are written. I mean, it frustrates me trying to watch a TV series or a movie and you see the schism where the character suddenly starts, departs from their character and their nature. And there's no comment on that in the work. They're clear, in written, know, almost like, it's not secret if somebody is aware and they're discerning, but it's just to keep people
from their true nature and what sort of an energy or what sort of an intention would want to keep a person from realizing their godness? That's the big question.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:11:19.5)
Yeah, there's the proverbial light versus darkness, spiritual warfare that's existing outside of the material. So I want to get your sense, even Bobby Kennedy kind of refers to this as being more of a spiritual path for him and, you know, recognizes that and we're seeing more and more people starting to connect with and recognize that there is potentially a spiritual warfare that's going on. Do you believe that is happening?
Dr. Moshe (01:11:45.042)
100%. I in fact think that there is a war between good and evil, and it's been ever since the world... Well, maybe that's not fair. There is a bit of a paradox here with evil, because let me say it like this. Evil is a necessary factor for our evolution to our true nature. And the reason for that is that God is one.
And God being one is, was, and always will be. So if, as we are born into that, all we know is that one, and there's no way of knowing ourselves as individual, as separate from that one will and that one mind. This is the dilemma, we'll put it in quotations, the dilemma the angels face. They don't know themselves, they're an extension of God's will. So in my awareness, in my estimation, God had this intention to create more.
for creation than just that oneness and encompassed all things. It's like playing a game of chess against yourself. You know every move and it's boring. There's a certain boredom to that. So the level of evil comes in to create a veil. Evil is required as a form of a veil because the veil is an illusion. If we look at the Course in Miracles, the first sin is to believe that you are separate.
Well, it's a requirement to believe you're separate, to know yourself as separate from God in order to learn yourself as an individual, to sort of edify that and grow an awareness of individuality so that when you bring your individual self back to the one where you belong,
There is something that has evolved, that has grown, that has expanded. So the presence of evil is a, I want to say is a requirement for this enterprise called Planet Earth. I don't want to speak for other planets, I don't know. Let's talk about Planet Earth. there is a game, the game itself is willed in my estimation by the divine.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:13:43.244)
Mm.
Dr. Moshe (01:13:57.36)
the game between the light and the dark. It is sanctioned by the divine. So I don't like to give it too much energy and go, know, the evil like and freak out about evil because there is something that is created purposefully by God. How could anything come to exist that is not God because God is all that is. So there is some intention there. However,
However, it takes itself very seriously and we're not meant to embrace it and endorse it and ride it like a horse. That's a big mistake. So this is a sort of like a balance of half-truths to accept its existence and that it's meant to be, but not to acknowledge it or not, sorry, not acknowledge it, not to embrace it and endorse it. And ultimately, God is not evil.
I'm not saying that God is made up of the balance and good and evil. I never believe that and I never say that. I do believe evil is created by God. That's different with a role. But godness, is-ness doesn't contain evil. It's definitely not. So that's what I wanted to say about that.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:15:08.59)
So that polarity that exists in our lives, the good and the evil, the light and the dark, the love and the fear, we create within that polarity. One has to exist in order for the other to expand. So, is one way to look at it, it is that for creation to occur.
that it is necessary for those polarities to exist and maybe even to think about our own lives in that way, that through with the struggle leads to the transformation. Going through the dark period to seek out the light is our growth. And, you know, God creates through us, like God is within us and is experiencing our creation, but those creations only can come through that polarity. So, there must be that contrast.
Dr. Moshe (01:15:44.399)
Yes.
Dr. Moshe (01:15:48.133)
Yes.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:16:01.184)
in order for us to evolve.
Dr. Moshe (01:16:01.903)
Yes, but temporarily though, it's not like in order for us to know our God nature, we must know evil inside of ourselves because evil has a way of negating love. love negates evil and if you're in a place of evil, you're negating the love. So they don't, it's not like at a given moment in time, they're edifying each other.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:16:25.283)
Right.
Dr. Moshe (01:16:26.321)
But the necessity of the challenge, of the struggle, of the suffering that comes from the false thought, or you could even call that a form of evil, an illusion. The devil in the Christian model is known as the Lord of illusions because that's the only realm that he could be sovereign over is what is not because God is all that is. So that's all the devil's got.
is this place of illusion. So we could say that those false beliefs are a form of evil and they are necessary at a certain point, but not to dwell in them. We want to go back. We want to return. And then the light, when the light shines and then it banishes the evil, it has served its purpose. Its purpose is fulfilled. That's the way I see it.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:17:14.914)
Yeah, I'm really interested in post material science as it exists, which include like near death experiences. And one of the things that you learn from people who have died, who've been physically dead and have returned is there's a similar story that is revealed that, you know, once they do leave the physical body and they follow this light that there's this life review that occurs. And in this life review, you know, where there's no time where there's no space, you experience your life.
over again in an instant, but from the experience of everyone who's been around you. So to like feel how you made someone else feel. And so in that veil, that illusion of separation disintegrates. And then you understand that in this material world, we are not separate from each other. So you will karmically experience, right, like how you've treated others to enhance your learning. Evil in some respect is
maintaining the illusion that we are separate, then you hurt others, you're seeking out pleasure. It's all about the power and what the body might experience in this physical world as if you're separate from God, if you're separate from the oneness of all things, each other. And so, ultimately, you know, when you're embracing love and you're embracing compassion, you are creating in that image of God. But you recognize, you can recognize when evil exists because it is so distinctly different
at a soul level from what you know. And that's the challenge of so many people still being attached to the matrix. And I think there's a global awakening that's occurring, is not everyone recognizes the difference between good and evil because the illusion is so strong, it can mask itself as if it's in some greater benefit. I mean, we see this in identity politics, or we see this in the public health establishment.
or creating this idea that you do something for the greater good, like take this mRNA vaccination, you know, to save your brothers and sisters. Like there's the illusion, right? Trying to play God in that way and not everyone can recognize that. And they, they're almost co-opted in this way to think that they're doing something that is good. And they're so attached to their team and they're so attached to the ideas that are being spread that they see the other as evil. No, and we're divided against each other.
Dr. Moshe (01:19:38.491)
Yes.
Absolutely. These are...
public health issues of massive importance for our general, for an individual's health. Like if they're a part of that, then they're in trouble. actually in trouble. The necessity for discernment is massive. And discernment is a masculine type energy. It's the ability to see the good from the bad. So in a way it has a little bit of a quality of judgmentalness. The feminine energy has risen up a lot lately and it's a little bit out of balance in the identity
politics and like the woke movement where it's like all it's it's all coming for a place of compassion but that lack of discernment that it has leads us to be susceptible to be misled by this governance of evil endeavors evil people what-have-you and and so the discernment there there has been a sort of a global push like through the movies you see this a lot
to suppress the masculine and to exalt the feminine into a kind of like hyper-masculinized feminine type of energy, which is a total inversion. And the inversion is really a key word in understanding what's happening on the planet, the way evil operates. Evil likes to invert everything. It inverts truth, it inverts masculine and feminine.
Dr. Moshe (01:21:04.495)
And this is what's happening. you you see a lot of hyper-masculinized women today and a lot of emasculinated men and the lack of discernment for an individual. And I'm saying, I want this to be very clear. Every human being has a beautiful feminine and masculine in them, regardless of whether they're men or women. We were created in the image and likeness of God.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:21:11.757)
Yes.
Dr. Moshe (01:21:29.335)
male and female they created us. Masculine and feminine we could say. If you look at our cosmology around us, the two closest planets are Mars and Venus. Opposites. The sun and the moon. Opposites. Day and night. Opposites. The whole world is made up of this correspondence of opposites. So what is required of us is to discern the presence of evil.
It doesn't make you a bad person to see bad where it is, where it stands. It doesn't mean you're judgmental. It means you're discerning. There's a difference between judgmental-ness and discernment, which is a little bit of the scourge of the new age to, you know, everything is good. And that requires a little bit of balance with the ability to recognize where the evil is lurking or where the unhealthy is lurking.
And we were just talking about putting dyes in food and fluoride in the water. And I definitely think that there's a level of evil to that. It's not just greed. We could say that greed is a form of evil. Sure, one of the seven deadly sins, but it's more than that. There's a greater design there. So as humanity wakes up to this, you kind of do wake up to feeling angry about it.
And you can get stuck in that anger. And I see a lot of people, a lot of Americans that are aware they're in this place of anger and the anger is like a burning fire that's consuming them. So I guess there's a balance here to be met too, to understand what you can do, what you can't do.
and what you have to leave up in God's hands and what you can do as well. What is your battle? Like it's important to find what is your battle to fight? What, what heal do you like? Like that's a really catchy expression. What heal do you want to die on? and if, if you feel passionate about a certain hill, well then, you know, that anger could serve you through expression, but not to like get consumed by it. But we're in a very interesting time where I would say that
Dr. Moshe (01:23:46.296)
I don't know if it's 50-50. I think the number of Americans now that are waking up is probably more than 50 % that something's going on. COVID was actually a blessing in disguise. A lot of people woke up during that time. They continue to do so. But the people that are under the spell, they have the woke mind virus.
Very intelligent people can have that woke mind virus, educated people. In fact, I'd say a big portion of educated people, know, in the university level and college level have that mind virus. So I think we're going to need to be able to address that if people are looking for answers.
I know that that's going to be necessary and it is even today to help people that have been so misled. That's hard because if you've been so misled and you were under the impression that that's what you were doing for your good and for the good of humanity, that's painful and you have to be willing to accept the pain of that cognitive dissonance in order to get through and most people will hit, they'll go,
And then they'll just stay in that mindset because they don't want to go through that. So the discomfort of awakening is necessary and maybe we need to create some programs around helping people wake up from and experience the pain. Maybe you have a little hand holding or a little pat on the back in that regard.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:25:26.329)
How do we facilitate discernment?
Dr. Moshe (01:25:30.417)
that's a good question. Well, talking about it, encouraging it, defining it, what is discernment? You know, hammering it, hammering it out a little bit and inviting people to discern, encouraging that it is an innate ability that we have and to trust your instinct. It would be a mistake like for a person, you know, sometimes some of the stories we talking about sexual abuse and rape.
the person had an instinctual feeling, stay away from this person. They're a predator. I don't feel right with them, but they went, no, don't be judgmental. You know, don't be judgmental about that. So we have to educate around when you feel that to certain because because it, the discernment could come through intuition like that. There's something wrong about this person. They seem really nice and loving, but there's something about my instinct that saying stay away from that person. So we really want to be
trusting of our instincts and in a way get down with the dirty side of nature, get down with our own darkness, own our own darkness, then it becomes easier to recognize when we see it. We're okay with it and we're okay with calling it out. You can call it out without losing love. You can still be in a place of love, but you could be calling that out, right?
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:26:57.09)
Yeah, that this over intellectualized culture that we have, I think is part of the evil agenda to detach us from our humaneness and that connection to our, that inner intuition, to be able to communicate to us. think technology does that. I think drugs do that. I think a lot of the media culture and the entertainment that is provided to us facilitates this constant distraction.
Right. And so I think part of like facilitating this discernment is being able to intentionally teach this that we are going to have to unplug. We're going to have to unplug from the news, the matrix, the computer, the ideas, the belief systems. And we need to be more connected in nature. We have to be more connected to ourselves so we can feel again. We have to get away from the messaging that says feeling is a symptom or feeling is a mental illness.
Dr. Moshe (01:27:27.046)
Yeah.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:27:54.51)
Instead we know we want to support that energy and understanding it and connecting with it because it is nature that's communicating to us. And the more we get disconnected from each other, the more we get disconnected from that internal source. I think this is when you see the root of disease, the root of suffering, and then we end up walking ourselves into evil.
Dr. Moshe (01:28:03.696)
Yes.
Dr. Moshe (01:28:15.237)
Yeah, that's great. Exactly. What I find as a common place that people try to avoid, like the play, is they try to avoid being alone with themselves.
So the distractions serve to keep them from feeling like just being alone, which is very ironically the most important place for a person to be comfortable with is themselves and with themselves alone. So periods of time alone, even going into a place of silence where you're not talking to anybody, solitude, very, very healthy for one for integrating one's life and and have realizations of truth and that whole stillness.
Because people are afraid. I see this so much. People are actually afraid of the stillness that lives inside of themselves. So when there's a solid stop, like I will not go there. From a solid stop is generated control. And when a person believes they have to control, to try to control their environment, control what other people say and how other people view them.
then they're not living, they're living a lie and they're living, that kind of control leads to suffering for themselves and for others. And the irony there is, it's the most beautiful invitation is awaiting that person to be able to just sit with themselves. So as a general practice of unplugging,
is to just sit with oneself and to be comfortable with oneself. And that means accepting, and this you keep emphasizing this so relevantly, accepting pain that is a part of our experience. You know, a,
Dr. Moshe (01:30:11.717)
What do you call it when there's a society that overindulges in everything? are, it's like, like just eating, overeating, indulging in sex. are carnal, but that's not the word. You know that word? They are, okay. I'm blanking on the word. It's a, maybe it'll pop into my head, but that kind of society is date. What's that?
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:30:35.798)
hedonistic? hedonistic?
Dr. Moshe (01:30:39.471)
Yes, thank you. Hedonistic. You know, hedonistic society is based on the satisfaction of the senses.
And the satisfaction of the senses lands very in contrast with the pain of emotional struggles and the pain of cognitive dissonance. So if we were raised in a hedonistic society, and we are, we're pretty hedonistic in America, know, satisfy your pleasures. It's very common. And it is a very popular form of the delivery of
you know, let's say evil again in quotations, like that's sort of the deprivation of connection with the self, right? Because sometimes to get to the self, have to go through the pain that it stands between where we are separated from the self and the true self. Like when you freeze your fingers in the winter and you want to go inside and get your fingers back, well, it's going to hurt a little bit.
So when, as we've been so separated from the self, there's going to be some defrosting going on as you retain a connection with yourself. And that does involve pain. So we have to be, accepting of that pain, except like it's instead of like running from it and doing everything, but face it very important.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:32:07.714)
Yeah, there's so many conditions that we work with here at my center that really the core is running away from and escaping that pain. Addiction, for example, any kind of, you know, food addiction, substance abuse, sex addiction. the eating disorders that I work with, bulimia, anorexia, you know, they reflect that same idea and even the avoidance and escape coping mechanisms that maintain anxiety conditions, right? All of these.
Dr. Moshe (01:32:18.203)
Yeah.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:32:35.702)
ways of living are escaping that internal experience that needs to, that is necessary for us for all transformation. I remember when I was younger, I developed this public speaking phobia because I stood in front of a large group of people when I was 20 years old and I blanked from anxiety and embarrassed myself. And I was faced with this
Dr. Moshe (01:32:58.947)
Mmm. Yeah.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:33:03.64)
choice in my life. Do I just avoid public speaking the rest of my life and have fear around it? Or do I just continue to throw myself in these situations and learn how to manage that internal anxiety and as well as the fear that, that my mind creates about that embarrassment and who I am in response to that. And then like, once you get embarrassed and you go through, which at that time was just like a horrible scenario for me, like to really embarrass myself in front of like a couple hundred people.
I survived it. So what? What's the biggest deal? But it was also transformational for me because I learned how to tolerate fear and move forward. And I think we all have to do that in order to fully love. You have to be willing to lose that person. You have to be willing to be rejected. And you see that fundamental conflict exists all the time in our society is you're just protecting yourself, protecting yourself, and then you never fully live and you never fully experience.
Dr. Moshe (01:33:54.575)
Right. Right.
Dr. Moshe (01:34:01.305)
Yeah, I think that's that's basis of the biblical quote, which I paraphrase is basically that those that are willing that lay down their lives will pick them back up again. So in a sense that this is one angle of the interpretation that when you're willing to die. Or you're willing to give up running from the fear of death, that's maybe a better way of looking at it.
then you pick up your life, you actually live. If you're afraid of death, you're afraid of loss, you're afraid of this and that, then you're actually not living.
And I wanted to sort of, I wanted to double down on something you said, anxiety as a form of escape. I think anxiety by definition is a form of avoiding something else. And very often, well, could, very often it could be sadness. So when the person feels the sadness rising up, they start to feel anxious because they have a built in judgment of facing and feeling that sadness. So it goes right into feeling anxious because
bad is happening and that could it could be anger it could feel it could be guilt it could be feeling sexual desire something that we judge is wrong we will feel anxious about so anxiety itself is not a condition yeah we right we treat it as a condition but it is the result of not facing something
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:35:19.628)
Yeah, of course.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:35:25.942)
Yeah, yeah, without a doubt. Well, listen, I've kept you for quite some time. I am so impressed by your wisdom. I could probably sit here for hours. But the truth of the matter is, is that a lot of your wisdom is out there available for people to listen to. Where can people find you?
Dr. Moshe (01:35:44.922)
Sure, sure. Well, if you know, I do train practitioners and you know, some of my favorite practitioners would be like psychologists and psychotherapists, counselors in this method that I do. It's called the V-Stialogue. So I do do a training and they could reach me at
holistic without a W. H-O-L-I-S-T-I-C-dash-counseling-with-1-L.ca. I am in the U.S. now. I've been here for three years, but I did develop this years and years ago when I was still in Canada, the 51st state of America. But yeah, so I'd be happy to receive connections about that. That would be really good. I do also
have a website doctor-moshed.com for people that are interested in you know doing their own work for their own healing. The program that I do also includes a health program individual so if a healer wants to heal themselves in addition to being trained and how to do this they get that as well.
And that is actually a vital part of the program is the physician or healer heal I self because when we have fundamental blocks in our own from our own false beliefs, they will invariably.
block the movement of energies and deepening when working with someone in this deep holistic way. It always gets in the way. It's not that we have to be perfect as practitioners, but we have to be comfortable with our wounds and understand them. So if they do start to get rubbed up against, we're okay with it. We can sit solidly in service to that person.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:37:38.146)
Well said. And I'll include all those links in the show notes. Is there any social media presence?
Dr. Moshe (01:37:45.099)
yes. I mean, I, I have a, I have an Instagram account and I have a Facebook account, which I can also share with you. I don't, I don't know what it's like long and it'd be, it'd be a little tedious to share it out right now, but I can, I can leave that for people to check, check out my Facebook and Instagram page. Sure. Yeah.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:38:06.04)
Very grateful for the conversation today. was most certainly a radically genuine conversation. Thank you.
Dr. Moshe (01:38:14.365)
it's my pleasure. I really enjoyed it too. You're an excellent host and I'm honored to be here with you. Thank you.
Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:38:20.686)
Thank you.
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