Radically Genuine Podcast with Dr. Roger McFillin

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (00:01.036)
Welcome to the radically genuine podcast. I am Dr. Roger McFillin. I want to wish a happy Thanksgiving to everybody who was listening to this on the day it's released here in the United States. Thanksgiving 2024. Hope you are really grateful for the things that you do have in your life and also intently focused on making changes in the areas where you believe change can occur. And that's kind of goal of today's podcast is for decades, we've heard the same story.

echoing through medical offices, research labs, pharmaceutical ads. Mental illness is primarily a genetic brain disease that requires medication. You've heard the narrative before. The billions of dollars that we put into funding trying to identify those biological substrates, correlates, origins of profound human suffering.

The narrative has shaped how we view it fueling a $40 billion quest to find biological markers and genetic causes. Since 2000, American taxpayer payers have bankrolled this amount of money. Yes, it's like estimated around 40 billion from the National Institute of Mental Health in this search for various genetic markers and neural pathways.

When you think about it, that's enough money to build four state of the art mental health centers in every major US city.

Yet as billions vanished into laboratories, suicide rates soared during this time. Some measures by 37 % since 2000. Youth mental health has collapsed and communities lost crucial resources for actual support and healing. Depression rates tripled from 3 % in the 1980s to 8.3 % by 2021. I don't know how accurate those numbers actually are. Those are NIMH numbers.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (02:04.824)
But what if we've been asking the wrong questions? What if our emotional struggles aren't simply the result of faulty genes or broken brains? What if we ask different questions, such as them possibly being meaningful responses to a very complex world? You know, the story of mental illnesses far more nuanced and complex than a genetic blueprint gone wrong.

And understanding this complexity begins with challenging everything we thought we knew about genes, brains, and suffering. Our own evolutionary history tells a fascinating story about what we call mental illness. For millions of years, our ancestors' brains and bodies developed sophisticated responses to help them survive. These weren't disorders, they were adaptations.

So for example, let's look at anxiety, that racing heart, those intrusive thoughts keeping you up at night. They're the same mechanisms that kept your ancestors alive, scanning for predators and responding to threats in a world of constant danger. Anxiety wasn't disorder. It was a superpower. Depression too, played a crucial role. Imagine ancient winners when food was scarce, the ability to slow down, conserve energy.

Withdraw from competition wasn't a malfunction, it was a survival strategy. Today's depression might be the same system responding to loss, signaling a need to conserve resources or process a profound change. Even what we call today is ADHD. Those traits, the ones were so quick to medicate, were likely tremendous assets for hunter-gatherers.

The ability to notice everything in their environment, switch tasks quickly, seek novelty, maintain high energy levels. weren't deficits, but advantages in a world where survival depended on them.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (04:13.742)
problem isn't that these responses exist. It's that they're being triggered in a world of evolution, which we never were prepared for. We're running kind of like ancient software on modern hardware, constant digital stimulation, sedentary lifestyles, and information overload and disconnection from nature overwhelm these finely tuned systems. It really does...

appear that there is a genetic mismatch between what we were designed to do to survive and what modern society has brought. In this way, you these aren't broken brains needing chemical correction. They're ancient adaptive systems struggling to cope with a world that has changed faster than our biology can evolve.

understanding this evolutionary perspective helps us to see these responses not as disorders to eliminate, but as signals to understand messages from our ancestral past and what we might need to thrive in the present.

Now, the problem that I do have is when we look at how our failed system has led to loss of lives. Let's, for example, let's talk about a combat veteran who sits across from their doctor, hands troubling, anxiety, his heightened awareness, the same instincts that kept him and his unit alive is now labeled as a disorder.

His nightmares and flashbacks aren't his mind processing trauma, they're deemed faulty circuits needing correction from the materialist, from those following NIMH protocols and funding resources. A sexual assault survivor struggles with panic attacks instead of recognizing her body's wisdom, it's it's natural response to violation.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (06:20.76)
She's told her brain chemistry is broken. Her protective responses are pathologized, reduced to a diagnosis requiring what many will say requires lifelong medication to quote unquote manage the mental illness. Consider the modern day teenager exhausted from endless scrolling, poor sleep, constant digital stimulation.

rather than addressing these modern assaults on wellbeing, they're some form of an antidepressant for a chemical imbalance, maybe a stimulant. Their bodies desperate signs for rest and connection are masked with more pills. Is this progress folks? Let's think about it. $40 billion. What do we have to show for it?

Think about a child that's raised in poverty and violence, whose alertness and emotional intensity become labeled as a behavioral disorder requiring medication. This natural response to chronic threat.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (07:35.222)
is identified as a brain condition, a brain disorder, rather than the environment's role in shaping their reactions.

And what about the typical adult caring childhood neglects heavyweight? Their struggle to trust isn't seen as legitimate response to abandonment. It's reduced to abnormal brain development. These are the consequences. They're not broken brains. These are human beings responding naturally to unnatural conditions. We've in a sense created a society that does create mass traumatization.

then tells them they're defective for their response. I think it's time to stop gaslighting human suffering and instead honoring its meaning. While we here in America have poured billions into biological research, other nations have discovered more effective paths to healing.

Let's explore these approaches that honor human experience rather than reducing it to brain dysfunction. For example, Finland's Open Dialogue program shows us what's possible. Even when you're talking about severe mental illness, when someone experiences psychosis, they don't wait weeks for appointments or, you know, rush to medication or hospitalization. Within 24 hours, a team meets with the person

and their entire support network. They create a space for meaningful dialogue, understanding that even psychotic experiences carry important messages about life and relationships. And this isn't just something that is new to Nordic countries. When we think about indigenous cultures, other what we call third world countries, this is a very similar response.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (09:38.03)
to something that we label as a sign of a severe illness. When you look at open dialogue in Finland, the results are quite remarkable. 85 % of participants return to work or study and only 20 % need antipsychotic medication compared to nearly 100 % in standard American care. After five years, 82 %...

show no psychotic symptoms. These outcomes far exceed our medication first approach. And so why aren't we questioning what has become standard mental health care? The doctors are able to say whatever they want without accountability. I mean, I hear it all the time. You experience an episode, now they assume it to be a chronic illness. You are sick. You require this drug for management.

regardless of the safety, regardless of efficacy.

In Bhutan, mental well-being is woven into their gross national happiness framework. They understand that emotional health can't be separated from community connection and relationship with nature. Another very important piece when we examine real healing. Their integrated approach treats the whole person, not just symptoms. New Zealand's Maori healing practices also show us another way. They view

stress through a spiritual and communal lens, understanding that healing happens in relationship, not in isolation. Their recovery rates demonstrate the power of cultural wisdom over biological reductionism. Brazil's respite house.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (11:33.272)
These replace psychiatric hospitals with what they call healing communities. Instead of sedating and separating, people engage in meaningful work, connect with others, and follow natural rhythms of recovery. They prove that creating conditions for healing works better than forcing chemical corrections. Even in the UK, which probably best mimics the United States approach, the Hearing Voices Network achieves better outcomes by treating voices as meaningful rather than

symptomatic. They help people understand and integrate their experiences instead of suppressing them with drugs. These approaches are successful because they honor human experiences in all its complexity. They recognize that healing comes through meaning, connection, and support, not just manipulating brain chemistry. And they achieve these results at a fraction of the cost we've wasted hunting

genetic markers. So if we take a step back, there are certain things that to me are quite obvious. We take episodic conditions and turn them into chronic illness. Our view through the biomedical lens has created mass harm and we've wasted billions. When we look at other countries and other approaches,

connection to nature, community support, meaning making, restoring health, all these things matter. Compare that to what we do in the US.

The evidence to me is clear when we treat human suffering as meaningful rather than medical, people do heal, or at least the outcomes are significantly improved. It is certainly time for us to learn from these examples and revolutionize our approach to mental health.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (13:30.19)
If we spent these billions studying genes, we've largely ignored modern lifestyle factors which impact mental health. The research, in my opinion, is pretty obvious and somewhat clear that our disconnection from natural rhythms, poor nutrition, harmful habits, certainly are least a piece of the mental health crisis.

Consider sleep disruption. So our ancestors lived by the sun's rhythms. Today's constant artificial light, late night screen time, disrupted circadian rhythms, profoundly impact mood and cognition. Studies show sleep disruption precedes many mental health problems. Our modern diet is equally problematic. Processed foods, sugar addiction, inflammatory ingredients which alter gut bacteria. These affect our

brain chemistry much more than any genetic variation. The gut brain connection is so powerful that some researchers call our digestive system our second brain. And physical inactivity, the sedentary lifestyle of many compounds these issues. We have evolved to move. Exercise is not just about physical health. It's crucial for brain function, stress resilience, emotion regulation.

and environmental factors play a massive role. Whether it's chronic exposure to artificial light, electromagnetic radiation from devices, air and water pollutants, endocrine disrupting chemicals, processed food additives.

These lifestyle factors interact with our body in complex ways through epigenetics, literally changing how our genes express themselves. This means many genetic mental health conditions might actually be lifestyle driven and the solution should not just be another pill. It's restoring those natural rhythms. Is there any doubt that regular sleep patterns, whole food, nutrition, daily movement,

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (15:40.118)
nature connection, digital detox periods, community engagement are all more effective than saying, hey, take this pill and go talk to that therapist.

Now, by addressing these fundamental lifestyle factors, many people find that their, you know, supposed chemical imbalance begin to resolve naturally. We need research studying how lifestyle changes impact mental health outcomes, not more genetic studies. The path to mental health must include restoring our connection to natural ways of living. Our bodies know how to be well. We just need to stop.

disrupting their innate wisdom. Remove the toxins, remove the poisons.

change the language that also exists. Because the 40 billion wasted on genetic research hasn't just failed, it has betrayed public trust while enriching pharmaceutical companies. This misguided crusade reduced human suffering to faulty genes while ignoring fundamental truths about healing. Couldn't these billions of dollars been used more effectively?

community-based mental health centers, research on nutrition and mental health, exercise programs for depression, natural sleep restoration initiatives instead of the next pill.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (17:12.28)
benzodiazepines, SSRIs, sleep aids, all things that are proven to create more sleep problems in the long run. How about more trauma-informed community programs? Looking at the impact of toxins. How about applying some traditional wisdom to deal with the inevitable challenges that everyone is going to face and not have to slap the label of mental illness on it?

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (17:42.158)
Yet the National Institute of Mental Health continues chasing genetic phantoms while ignoring these basic human needs. You know, it's like the illusion of help when you talk about the biomedical revolution and the money that they're putting into like studying the neural networks of rats. You know, tell me where that has transitioned into frontline treatments that are effective and safe.

So we need a revolution in both our research, but also our language. Instead of pathologizing natural responses to life's challenges and trauma, we must ask what has happened to you, not what's wrong with you. It's a pretty significant shift.

Our children especially deserve better. Instead of labeling every struggle as a disorder, we can create more emotionally safe environments. We can teach healthy ways to deal with tense emotions or process feelings or respond to adverse events. We can restore natural rhythms disrupted by modern life that obviously include screens. We can build more supportive community connections. can add

adapt our school system to fit the kids we're trying to teach, especially the amount that they or the lack of amount that they move their body, the amount of time they spend in school on wasted curriculum that doesn't build critical thinking. We can model resilient responses to adversity, but we can teach it as well.

So I encourage you, jump onto the NIMH website and get an idea of where our tax dollars are being put to good use. And ask critical questions, because it sure looks like they're patting themselves on their back for the potential for innovative research. But what are the results? And does it really make sense? You know, us as spiritual beings? Do we really think consciousness only emits from a brain?

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (19:49.13)
Or is there a whole other world outside of materialism in the study of scientific phenomenon? How far behind are we in this? It certainly has not led to improved outcomes.

So here's a suggestion. How about a complete audit of NIMH spending? How about a redirection of funds to lifestyle and community interventions? How about we investigate pharmaceutical industry influence? Return to research priorities that serve health, not corporate profits.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (20:27.66)
let's use that research dollars that can provide critical fundamental health interventions.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (20:37.634)
The mental health revolution won't be found in genes or brain scans. It'll come from remembering what we've always known. That human beings need proper sleep, good food, movement, nature, community.

meaning, love, connection, and a way to understand their suffering that transcends how we're currently talking about it. Our bodies know how to heal when given the right conditions. Our emotions carry wisdom when we learn their language. Let's stop wasting billions studying why we're sick and start investing in what makes us healthy. Anything less betrays both public trust

and human wisdom. I think that in a nutshell reflects the radically genuine podcast and my agenda moving forward. You know, it's interesting what happens when we're born into a culture.

When we're exposed to the repeated media messaging, the movies, the commercials, the language, the identification of what science is, is because we begin then to limit our ideas on our capabilities. It's quite normal for anyone in the mental health field to start talking about any behavioral problem, emotion or thought using the word symptom.

this symptom, that symptom, people tend to do well on this drug or that drug. We've adopted that language, we've adopted that medical model. And of course, this is what's fueling NIMH agendas. Who does this research priorities, who does it actually serve? Because what they're saying is that the primary intervention

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (22:40.864)
is going to be medical, pharmaceutical.

There is really no talk of spiritual separating the mind from the brain.

There's really not a lot of talk about resilience and contextual factors. I mean, they don't really work well together. When you're going to say that, you know, there's something called major depressive disorder or generalized anxiety disorder, when you're going to try to communicate that as a discrete medical illness, certainly it doesn't fit with more contextual understandings of mental health.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (23:25.73)
When you step back, it's really arbitrarily created. Who is to say two weeks of a depressed mood means you have major depressive disorder? Listen, no one who is depressed is depressed because they've developed major depressive disorder. There's legitimate problems that exist in their lives. Yes, the consequences may be that they feel down for period of two weeks and maybe their sleep is affected.

and there's a loss of energy and there's some fatigue and they're down and out.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (23:59.138)
But how do you really conduct biological research when you've made up the condition?

Well, you don't. It's not like everyone who has major depressive disorder looks similar. They most certainly do not. We cannot compare it to type 1 diabetes.

or having some virus.

And these are the challenges. This is why when we think about research priorities, we want our money devoted to something that would advance our understanding and most certainly improve outcomes. And when you have such a cultural problem, like we do in the United States in the way that we think about mental health,

Well, the unfortunate consequence is that, you know, this has infiltrated our collective consciousness. Someone starts to feel down for two weeks, then they associate it with having major depressive disorder. Anxious? Worrying? Well, generalized anxiety disorder.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (25:13.388)
I think we have to demand more of our public agencies, our government agencies. The goal here and the hope here most certainly is that the new administration, which is going to be investigating how our government agencies have wasted taxpayer dollars, and is certainly going to take a good look about how it's served

pharmaceutical industry, especially when in an NIH. I think it's also a responsibility for all of us to stop using the language to start holding people accountable. I'm going to start examining NIMH's budget where they're devoting resources and try to examine what the outcomes are and maybe bring people onto the Radically Genuine podcast to talk about this more sophisticatedly.

and to try to inform how these research dollars can lead to any advancements. Yes, I know there's not a lot we understand about schizophrenia and severe mental illness certainly can be debilitating. However, the National Institute of Mental Health oversees all of mental health from what we call depression and anxiety and eating disorders and post-traumatic stress.

Obsessive compulsive disorder all these labels that we've given to these responses to various events in our lives And it's very clear That money has not been well spent it's very clear that if you look at data Across decades the more money we spend in this direction the worse we get Yes, is it complex has a lot happened in society no doubt

rapid transformations in technology have altered the way that we communicate, altered the way that we use our leisure time, and certainly there are factors in our lack of active lifestyles connected to nature, just no doubt.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (27:32.13)
But some of the solutions are rather simple. We have to get back at that. I think we save a lot of lives by limiting the lies that are being told about what mental health is and what mental health isn't. So on this Thanksgiving Day, I'm certainly grateful for the audience who listens to this podcast, who's willing to critically think and

I certainly am a supporter of those who've been harmed by the system. I say often my superpower is more in my heart and caring for people and grateful that I can use this platform to educate and stimulate thinking because this is what's going to have to happen in order for us to make transformative change, both in our households with our families, but also with our brothers and sisters, our neighbors.

So happy Thanksgiving everybody. And I really do appreciate all the time and effort that's been provided to listening to this podcast and sharing this podcast. And many of the people who are either struggling with their mental health or those who are working in the field who want better. And I appreciate everyone who reaches out. I wish I could get back to everybody who sends an email, but it's become quite impossible lately.

do the best that I can. But often I get those emails and it stimulates thinking and I ask critical questions. So as we move into the Donald Trump second term here in January and the Make America Healthy Again movement with Robert Kennedy heading

NIH or the Health and Human Services, certainly excited about possibilities to break free from the chains of paradigms that have not served us. Have a good day. Thanks.