Radically Genuine Podcast with Dr. Roger McFillin

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (00:01.696)
Welcome to the radically genuine podcast. am Dr. Roger McFillinn. Today we are going to have a critical conversation about the future of our children and by extension our society. Today we're taking a hard look at our education system that I believe is failing on multiple fronts. On one hand, we're still struggling with outdated methods that prioritize rote memorization over genuine understanding, critical thinking, problem solving.

think we're stuck in a paradigm that values standardized test scores over what really matters as far as its application to a society as being an innovator and a creator. But while we've been focused on many of these longstanding issues, it seems like a new threat has somewhat emerged, certainly more visible over the past four or five years, but has probably been creeping in to

the public education system, as well as the training of teachers for probably a good 20, 25 years or even more. Our schools intended to be crucibles of free thought and intellectual growth are increasingly becoming instruments of social engineering. Under the banner of progress, we're seeing the rise of ideological indoctrination that threatens the very essence of independent and critical thought. The result?

We're producing a generation ill -equipped to face real -world challenges. Many can recite facts, but struggle to analyze them critically. They're taught what to think rather than how to think. And alarmingly, many are more adept at spotting perceived offenses than solving actual problems. Even when you think about how we teach history in public school systems.

There's a bit of an indoctrination and the things that we focus on and we're told to have to regurgitate and remember doesn't allow for us to really critically analyze the decisions of leaders of the past to best inform future decision -making. I think that's purposeful. But here's the real danger. This combination of rote learning and ideological programming is eroding the foundation of a free

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (02:27.124)
without the ability to challenge authority, to think critically and independently, how can we expect our youth to maintain and defend the freedoms we hold dear?

Today we're going to be challenging the status quo. We'll explore how our children are far more capable than maybe current educational approaches give them credit for. We'll dissect how misapplied concepts of mental health and social justice are handicapping true critical thinking. We'll certainly explore practical solutions from the power of psychocratic dialogue to lessons we can learn from educational models around the world.

My opinion, the value of true freedom becomes apparent when we understand both its presence and its absence. A lesson vividly illustrated by the experiences of Latin American immigrants, teachers, and those who have witnessed their governments devolve into totalitarianism and under the guise of Marxist ideology. These individual stories reveal how freedom shapes every aspect of our lives.

from personal choices to societal progress. Equally crucial to preserving this freedom is the power of critical thinking and the ability to challenge authority, skills that act as a shield against the erosion of democratic values. By fostering these abilities in our educational systems, we equip future generation with tools to recognize and resist threats to liberty, whether overt or subtle, and many of them are subtle.

This approach, understanding the cost of lost freedom through others' experiences while actively cultivating the intellectual means to protect it, creates a robust defense against authoritarian encroachment. It ensures that we not only appreciate our freedoms, but also possess the capacity to maintain them, learning from history while actively shaping a future where liberty thrives through informed critical engagement with power structures.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (04:34.784)
to enter this critical discussion today. I want to welcome back Kel Weatherhold to the radically genuine podcast. He's an award winning public school teacher. He's an OG original radically genuine host and producer. So those who have been with us from the beginning will remember these back and forth between Kel and my brother really over the past year. He's been behind the scenes with us. Kel, welcome back to the podcast. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Thank

What I love about Kelly is he and I did work together in the school system years ago, and he was always an innovator. He was always challenging the status quo. He's a critical thinker and it's led to him receiving multiple awards. So I'm really interested in his perspective combined with our other guests today, which is Daniel Herberger, a Guatemalan American who's founded critical thinking schooling as a collaborative learning method, where through systematic dialogue,

Premises are examined, questions are raised, and kids are helped to reflect upon what they say and think is a different approach. And that can only come from somebody in my opinion who understands maybe the costs of freedom lost. He taught at Francisco Mariquin University in Guatemala, which is known as the University of Free Marketeers. He's been featured on Telemundo and other programs.

Daniel, welcome to the radically genuine podcast.

Daniel Herbruger (06:07.195)
Thank you. Thank you, Roger. And thank you, Kel. I'm excited to be here and grateful for the opportunity.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (06:15.468)
Glad to have you here. I want to first identify the problem. I'm to start with Kel before I bring you in, Daniel. Kel, you and I have had these questions over the years about what is education? How do you really genuinely prepare somebody to function in a world independently? Curious what you have observed within the public school system over the past 20, 25 years. I think you've been in it for 25 years. 25 years. And so 25 years, I've seen

Kelly Wetherhold
I see the messages I think are correct where you have a lot of teachers that say the right things, but then the system itself does not allow for some of these teachers to be able to take the risks that they need to create independent thought. So when you ask me what's changed, what I'm seeing, at least on my end, I mean, I don't speak for all teachers. I'm seeing a lot more dependency on the system, a lot more dependency on teachers to give the answers instead

the kids trying to figure things out, you know, and a lot of them are afraid because of the grading system, you know, the failing and the grading system itself. So it's a, it's a systemic issue when you say we want all of our public school kids to be independent thinkers. And again, the message that resonates with most teachers is they believe they're, they're doing that. The vast majority of our public school teachers are amazing and they really do believe they're doing that. I just believe that the system itself does not necessarily allow.

for that to happen. Okay, let me bring in Daniel. Dan, if you can just kind of introduce yourself to extent of like how you got to this position in your life and how you started this critical thinking schooling. Anything about your history that can allow us to understand why you chose to go in this direction in your

Daniel Herbruger (07:59.778)
Thank

Daniel Herbruger (08:05.102)
Absolutely. So the, there's a lot of aspects of, I guess, my background that brought me into education, but sadly it all started because my brother had a car accident when he was 16 and this was in Guatemala. That was over 20 years ago. And to this day, he's still recovering. He was in a basically a car accident, you know, a bunch of teenagers after a party, alcohol was involved, rainy day, you know, what usually happens. And the reason this got me started is because

teachers gave up on him. He was the rowdy student. We did attend an American school in Guatemala, very strict, very, very formal, if you will. I think it was a great school, but they gave up on him. coming from a business owning family in Guatemala, most teachers kind of resented my brother because their thought process was, this kid is able to misbehave because he's just going to go into the family business right after. And so he acted accordingly.

After going through the accident, I started majoring in journalism at Francisco Marroquin University. As you mentioned, it is known as the University of Free Marketeers. Who would expect that in Guatemala? We've had even Senator Rand Paul come visit, Hayek, Mises, Friedman. They've all come to, I mean, obviously when they were alive, they've come to Francisco Marroquin University. Even

Dr. Larry Arne from Hillsdale College has received an honorary degree from Francisco Madoka University. But in college, I was given the opportunity to attend a seminar on Socratic practice, on Socratic dialogue, essentially. And after having experienced the tragedy of my brother's accident, because there was a brain injury, trauma four or five, so to this day, he has limited mobility. I was always wondering what the purpose of education was.

And it was through the Socratic practice program that I learned to think critically and to really become a lifelong learner and to appreciate that. And what really got me started was when I finished that course, I told my professor, Albert Lohan, who's actually from New York. I told them, you know, if we, if we teach students to think critically in college, it's way too late. Like we have to start at a younger age, if you will. And so that's what, that's what got me started.

Daniel Herbruger (10:23.694)
And as an educator, I am just passionate about merging my experience growing up in Guatemala and having, you know, some of that, you know, family business experience with the principles that can help students become critical thinkers in the classroom.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (10:42.934)
What brought you to the United States?

Daniel Herbruger (10:45.618)
we just have, opportunities here. and, know, just being Guatemalan American, we, have the opportunity to, to take care of some stuff, here in the United States having to do with, entrepreneurship and real estate.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (11:03.158)
So you saw it as an opportunity to grow your business, to be in a free society. Many people view immigration to the United States as the opportunity for upward mobility.

Daniel Herbruger (11:16.614)
Yes, and I think what I'll add to it is I guess I'll break a paradigm here Guatemala is a thriving country the middle class in Guatemala has been growing tremendously and What the media is reporting is not really what's happening. There is a thriving middle class now, thankfully the thriving middle class has risen because a lot of remittances have gone back to to Guatemala from the United States over the past 30 years or

and so that's, that's one of those things that I think, you know, based on my experience, I can kind of bring to the conversation that we think that the best practices, especially in terms of education are going from the United States to every other country. I think based on what's been happening in the education world these days, it's actually the other way around, you know, cause it feels

A lot of what I've learned in schools in Guatemala are things that have served me well in schools here in the United States, just in terms of the rigor, the discipline, and also the ability to nurture critical thinking, which as Kel said, mean, a lot of teachers say they are doing so, but it is the system that is not allowing it to happen. And one thing I'll share is probably the most shocking thing that most parents

can learn from this conversation is I was, you know, when, when I, when I got into the ed world here in the United States, I was shocked to see how socialized education is in the United States. The United States has the most socialized education system in the world. And I will say Guatemala is a much more free market and free education system than it is in the United States. And that is because in Guatemala, most of the good schools are private schools. And those go from

$10 a month tuition to $2 ,000 a month tuition. So you have the entire repertoire of options and parents do not even hesitate to go into private education. So government is so inefficient in a good way, I guess, that essentially, you know, by being left out, they have lost track of the ability to control schools as much as they do here in the States. So to me, that was that was an aha moment, just seeing how indoctrinated

Daniel Herbruger (13:35.296)
society is to the idea that teachers have to be certified, the idea that you have to go to a public school, you know, even me coming in here, having taught for eight years at the university level, you know, I would tell people, you know, I'm a teacher, I'm a professor. And they would say, but you're not certified by the state of Texas. And so to me, that was a shocker. And that just speaks about how indoctrinated people are.

You know, my brother, he's a genius in engineering, know, running factory lines. He would not be allowed to teach a group of middle school students a class on engineering, like no way. And that speaks volumes of what's happening in our education world.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (14:19.858)
And in some cases, we're taking individuals that are experts in their field that actually want to help, you know, the youth. And we're saying you can't do it because you have to go through this program. You know, it's sometimes are two, three, four year programs just to get a certification. So I'm with you on that. don't get it. I think it begs the question that is this, is there this illusion of freedom that exists in the United States that's kind of more presented by the media than an actual reality?

And so I want to get your thoughts on this because, know, know Central America, Latin America, you know, there's been, you know, various uprisings and political ideologies based on, based on countries with a lot of Marxist, communist and totalitarian kind of viewpoints. And a lot of people who have had to experience that and understand what a society looks like are now acutely aware of some of the mass conditioning

that's happening in the United States. So Danielle, I want to get your outsider perspective on what you see is currently happening culturally and politically here in the United

Daniel Herbruger (15:27.23)
Wow. We, we, we opened the can of worms, but I'm excited about this conversation because I think the lens in which I'll share my perspective is the, education world, which is I think very relevant to your audience. I see what's happening here has been, I mean, I'm just not surprised. And that is because Americans, I think we've, we've, become accustomed to assuming that we're always going to be the best. We're always going to be number

And sadly, we're losing that in the battle of ideas. In terms of the economy, I think we're blessed in the sense that if we go back to 2020, what really I think gave us a bit of an edge, it's giving us an edge to this day is our federalism. The fact that we were able to have Florida, Texas, Montana, mean, South Dakota open and essentially out of the big economies of the world, we opened up first, right?

kudos to that decision because otherwise we would be like Asia right now or like Europe, know, just kind of dealing with the, you know, the 2020 aftermath in terms of, you know, I have my thoughts on, you know, the health crisis in 2020, but so I think, you know, with that in the right context, what we're seeing is the lack of gratitude and the lack of appreciation is what's allowing people to give up their freedoms.

Just because if you don't understand how blessed we are in the United States how How much how much people want to come into the United States? people are are freely able to allow themselves to be indoctrinated and also to spend their their time in ways that are not Enhancing freedom. So one thing I always like to you know, as parents is

Is your child spending more time on social media or is your child spending more time with you having conversations on gratitude, having conversations on the history of the United States and having conversations and dreams that they might have for their lives. So when you go to, say a place like even right now as we are recording this interview, Venezuela is going through a very difficult situation. And keep in mind that Venezuela at some point was the wealthiest

Daniel Herbruger (17:42.734)
country in Latin America. we thought about Venezuela as the Miami of Latin America. And guess what? Now they're they're poor. I mean, you can't really have a good life except if you're in the you know, with the government in Venezuela, just like with Cuba. And so when we see those cases, what it reminds us is it could happen in the United States. And the way it's happening is where I started is the fact that the government has a stronghold

on education and to the extent that they have that and then they even continue that through college because it just continues to be in that way. It's preventing people from becoming entrepreneurs. In other words, if you go to Guatemala, as much as you can look it up, mean, just Google Guatemala City, it looks like New York really. It's a beautiful city, especially in the last few years.

So there's a lot of opportunity there, but I'm proud to say that most Guatemalans really have an entrepreneurial mindset and you see that in immigrants. Whereas in the United States, what kids are being taught is get a job and there's nothing wrong with having a job. It's just the mindset, right? If you have the right mindset, you can still think entrepreneurially even within a job situation. And I feel like the combination of government being in bed

with education in the United States and the combination of the lack of gratitude and the lack of appreciation of how we got to be so free in the United States and so wealthy. It's what's gotten us to where we are, which is a lot of people just not being willing to a defender country. And when we say defending our country, you we're not talking about any sort of international war, but instead it's really just learning about our history, learning about our constitution.

and living in a manner where you own your choices. A lot of the references parents have with kids is it's all about blaming as opposed to taking responsibility. So it starts at home and we're seeing that in the larger context as you mentioned.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (19:51.444)
Yeah, the values I want to share a story with you as a professor. When I was teaching this past year, I did the would you rathers. I just thought it would be fun to start off with a would you rather. And so I asked my class, said, all right, would you rather at this point in your life have all the knowledge to do everything like cooking, taking care of finances, you have all that knowledge, but you don't have a college degree, you have all that knowledge, or would you rather have the college degree?

the students were just like college degree. You know, it's as if they basically are thinking as long as I get that degree, I'm somehow going to get a job and it's going to pay me a lot of money and I'm going to be just fine. I just, you know, it seems like that idea is more myth than any reality. Like it really was born out of the post World War II era where

even our public school system was really, it was really powerful in creating the message that, you know, if you, if you achieve school, if you go to college, then you're offered all these opportunities to kind of grow within the system. The American public school system never really trained entrepreneurs, entrepreneurial individuals, or that thinking or that mindset, it really trained factory factory workers, right? It was

in a lot of ways, it was obedience to authority, was regurgitating back what the teacher or the curriculum wanted you to know. And your ability to do that at a high level is what increased your ability to go to some of the top schools and even some of the top schools are relatively shut out, right? The Ivy League became this

ground for the elites to keep their family members and so forth within a similar system of developing relationships in the business model. And it doesn't really hold water anymore. The idea that you can get a college degree and it leads to a job doesn't actually meet the evidence. So I do think we have to take a step back right now and we have to ask ourselves some questions and maybe some definitions.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (22:07.88)
about what certain things mean. So Daniel, when you say that it's a socialist system, which it absolutely is, let's first define it. And then we have to talk about what the implications of that are on the individual because they're not thinking about it this way. I don't think most families are thinking about it this way because they've grown up in the United States. They only know what they know. It's a high standard of living. And with such a high standard of living, for the most part, you're protected.

against some of the real genuine fears that would exist if you grew up and you lived in another country where your freedoms were at risk, where you faced crises, create famine and violence, war, a number of those things. Like most American families are protected from that. There's this idea of American exceptionalism and we are mass conditioned through media and have been through our lives. And so certain things are taken for granted and certain things are accepted.

So let's first stop, what is the definition of like socialist education?

Daniel Herbruger (23:10.382)
Well, I would just and our students actually read that, you know, part of our curriculum includes the communist manifesto. So the way to put it is understanding social and socialism is a milder form of communism. And Karl Marx has a section where he has kind of like the equivalent of the 10 commandments of communism. And I believe it is number nine, which says a free education for all.

So when we say a socialist education, it is funded by the government. Obviously they are taxing you and they're taking your wealth from you. It is being forced. You have no choice on that. And then therefore the quality does suffer because there's so much funding that they're not being good stewards of the process and of the product. comparing the experience with Latin America,

when you don't have skin in the game, you tend to be a bad steward of things. And that's what has happened in education. The fact that there's so many beautiful buildings, which again, we can get into a larger conversation on how we got there. But ultimately, we focused more on buildings or building literally buildings as opposed to building the minds of students with the right skill set. But it really goes back

who's funding it and the idea that the government has to approve that education system.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (24:49.228)
So with socialist ideas under kind of communist thinking, how does it serve the elite class or the government class?

Daniel Herbruger (25:00.994)
Whoa, well, I can speak about the experience in Guatemala. Guatemala, and I was actually just telling my wife a few days ago, especially with everything that's going on these days, the United States has never felt to me as much, or it has never felt like it feels today, because it never felt as much as I felt in Guatemala. And what I mean by this is Guatemala has an elite group.

has a small middle class and it has a huge group of people who are poor essentially. granted the middle class has been growing. Now we were blessed. We grew up in, I would say in the right side, if you will. And so we were always comfortable, we were always blessed. And I could see how the elites in the United States

the and I'm going to use a term that might be relatively new for some listeners, the mercantilism and basically mercantilism refers to government essentially being in bed with business and protecting those industries. And so when you have an industry like education being protected by government, they are scared of anything that challenges their model and their clientele.

And so how does that protect the elites? Well, it basically protects the status quo, right? And so if we were to test out models, if we were to test even ourselves, right, like we all want to improve, we all want to improve for our students, for our families, for our lives. If you allow the free market to judge the quality of your service and there is no external competition that's artificially manipulated.

I think we would have better outcomes, right? If instead of forcing us to pay for public schools through taxation, we were basically, mean, people talk, so here's what's shocking. People here in the US talk about vouchers as if we're entitled to those vouchers. That's our money. And so how about simply not taxing us and let us pay for whatever education we want, which

Daniel Herbruger (27:18.222)
more like the Guatemalan model of education. And sure enough, you have models in which, you know, they can cater to every socioeconomic level. And that's why I said you have tuition levels of like 10, $20 a month, and you have the $2 ,000 a month, which ironically, a lot of the the diplomats, if you will send their kids to, you know, the $2 ,000 tuition private school in Guatemala. So that's a whole different conversation, but it benefits them in that by not changing how things

You know, everything can be kept as it is, right? And if there's no change and you're comfortably where you are, you have an interest in protecting that and not letting things change. And obviously we get into a conversation of the teachers unions. Guatemala also has a teachers union, especially in the public sector. But guess who's being affected? It is the kids, right? Everybody and their brothers benefiting except the kids and therefore the families and therefore a country.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (28:19.124)
In Guatemala, do they have the same type of a system in terms of curriculum? Is it centralized and then dispersed amongst the private schools or are they actually making up their own in locales? Are they coming up with their own curriculum?

Daniel Herbruger (28:36.888)
So it is interesting because the model is essentially the same around the world in which there is an education, what's it called, the education institution, which will be the Department of Education. There is one in Guatemala. They do have the standard curriculum, if you will, and they do give the seal of approval to even private schools if they wanna get a degree certified by the Department of Education. So you might be a private one, but you kinda get accredited by them.

Now what's been happening is, and I was part of the founding team at Acton Academy. If your audience has heard of Acton Academy schools, the first location was in Austin, Texas. The second was in Guatemala. The idea of the Acton model was that we were not going to grant a degree. Instead, students were just going to get an education for the sake of education. And the reason we decided to go that route wasn't because we weren't that interested in giving the degree. It's just

the red tape and the layers of, you know, just bureaucracy to get that done. We're so high that it was either we're going to spend so much time trying to get approved before we could start the school, or we should just start the school and then figure, figure out the rest as, as we went. And that's what we ended up doing. So the experimentation that can happen in Guatemala is, I think it's allowed simply because people make those choices. And now I do have to admit, you know, kind of like our initial conversation

on degrees and the formality around it. That's still a thing in Guatemala. People still look up to people just based on degrees and status and what have you. What's different is the government is not very efficient in even providing the educational service, which allows for more dynamic innovation in the education world.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (30:29.75)
There's many who would say right now that the United States represents a late stage empire. And what that means is historically, if you look at other countries who were thriving or were, you know, empires before the collapse of the empire, there's a number of things that were probably occurring within their culture, both economically, militarily. One of those was being overextended militarily. There were cultural issues where

the morals of the society kind of devolved into depravity in a lot of ways within excess availability of food and sex and extension of blurred moral boundaries and so forth. Debt, being in a high degree of debt and the currency being devalued and then high degrees of division that

occurring within that culture. One way to create division within a culture is through pitting the citizens against each other and trying to create an idea of you are being oppressed based on specific identity characteristics. So I think when a country is thriving or region is thriving, there's kind of this shared nationalism at

When the United States had mass immigration, there was assimilation into the culture, like wanting to learn the language, wanting to learn the ideals, wanting to integrate into a community because the belief in a free market and a belief in capitalism said, I can be judged, not based on the color of my skin, not based on where I came from. I'm not going to be controlled by the government, but my hard work, my ingenuity, my own God given talents.

And for a lot, you see, look historically, you know, that was necessary. That was the case. mean, regardless of race, religion, there was the opportunity to, to work hard, achieve education, maybe have the freedom to innovate. And then you could then put your family in these higher positions and more opportunities as they, you know, as you're, as you've continued to evolve in your career, I think, you know, I'm in this position because of, look at my

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (32:55.456)
you know, and, and who served in world, my grandfather served in world war two or my other grandfather started a business, you know, these things, the, the freedom of our culture and our society allowed us to happen. But when we talk about Marxist or socialist ideas, in a lot of ways, that is limiting that upward mobility. And it is also a kind of a brainwashing that one success in life has not necessarily have to do with hard

or individual talent, it's based on those identity characteristics. So it's is like dividing women against men, African Americans against white people. We see this today when we talk about things like white supremacy, which is like really big from our own US government, or talking really any kind of race baiting that exists, even if the evidence doesn't support it, when it's being pushed by

the ruling class. If we are not critical thinkers, if we are not aware of historically where this has already occurred, then we accept it as our truth. If we're absorbing it in our media, if we're absorbing it in our public schools, this is real. I see it all the time. Like people will come in even to my sessions and the reason that they're struggling is because they're not a white man. And they have no idea what

actually means as if all white men are in the top 1 % economically, and they're not aware of the large degree of poor people that exist throughout the country, regardless of your race. So I want to take it a next step further, where our educational system, or we can call them government schools is actually pushing this ideology and how it's dispiriting to the human to human progress, because it's leading you to think about your own ability

create wealth for your families, not based on your hard work, but it actually drives your anger and your resentment towards the other, right? There's a division of that. And that's probably protecting the elite class from a system that they created that's going to limit that. And when you see that we're getting taxed to the extent that we are, and that money is going overseas to fight foreign wars, where we have poverty in our own country, we do not have upward mobility, we have high levels of inflation.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (35:17.852)
We have people now that are mass conditioned who actually don't see it as a government problem or an oligarchy that's been developed. We're still in the illusion of democracy. We're still in the illusion of freedom because they don't know any different. And Daniel, I think it requires someone like you to speak to that who's aware of different cultures and other governments and how it can devolve into a country that presents itself in terms of freedom. But by no way it actually represents that in our education system is a big piece of it.

Daniel Herbruger (35:47.826)
Absolutely. And, know, one of your initial questions was, you know, how did I get involved in education? You know, inspired by my brother, but as I'm seeing my mission in this historical moment we're going through, I would say, I feel like I'm being used by, you know, I'm a believer, so I'm being used by God to share some experiences and what we've seen.

and bring that into the classroom, not that you preach in the classroom, but instead just by having that background, creating the right processes in educational environments that are more conducive to freedom. I feel like that's one of the ways we could turn this around. So I'll share a radical idea that I've thought about. What if instead of pushing men to avoid the teaching career,

We were having a conversation on the way we save our country is we flood the public schools with men, with male teachers and with high quality female teachers as well. But I say that men simply because it's actually looked down upon, you know, to be generally to be a teacher. And that's actually not the case in places like Guatemala. You know, there is more respect and that also applies to other countries in the world. I've been to over 30 countries and in most places around the world.

teachers are actually respected. But that narrative is not to be blamed on the kids. Instead, it's actually to be blamed even on the parents. know, the way we think of teachers, you know, low salary people and what have you, that really affects the way everybody sees education.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (37:35.488)
Yeah, it's very demoralizing to kind of be a teacher in the United States because you are, know, when contracts come up with unions every four years or five years, the media just goes and attacks teachers. And it is, I know a lot of people that are wonderful teachers that are just, they want to get out because they just feel like they're waking up every day, putting so much time in, they care so passionately about their students, and yet they feel very disrespected.

You know, and I agree with everything that you just said. But one question when you said, you go around the world and you're seeing that, you know, those cultures very much value teachers. put them high up on a pedestal. Why do you think that isn't happening here as much in the U

Daniel Herbruger (38:26.444)
I guess I might have two answers. One might be a bit of a conspiracy theory, which I hope it's not the case. I'm hoping it's not intentional, but assuming it's not intentional, I guess it goes back to the initial lack of gratitude we were talking about. if you, so again, coming from my background, one thing, and even to this day, even as we're recording, neither my dad nor my brother have a degree. Now they do have the education.

And yet, you know, they run thriving businesses. I didn't get my degree until I want to say about 2019, 2020. That's about 10 years after having attended college and even after having taught at a college level. And the only way that happened was because, know, Francisco Marroquin University being as true to their values as they are, they value talent. They don't value degrees. And so they got me in, you know, age 23 or

And it wasn't until I realized that if I wanted to truly be effective, if you will, or at least to get into the educational system in the United States, I was going to need that degree because essentially it was almost impossible to make that change. So to your question, I would say, why is it happening here? I will go back to the way, going back to the elites that you were mentioning, just kind of wanting to protect

education world, obviously we can talk about the unions, et cetera, but not having the most qualified individuals in the profession. Again, most of them are amazing, but obviously we know there are some teachers that either have gotten comfortable or they got in for the wrong reasons. And I'll share an interesting experience about Acton Academy Guatemala when it was started. So its founder, he's a developer in Guatemala. actually

These days he lives part time in Austin, Texas and now in Guatemala. And when he was trying to put together the founding team, which I was blessed to join, his plan was to pay those educators slash teachers slash guides slash facilitators, whatever you want to call it, industry rates. So the same amount that somebody working for, you know, a multinational in Guatemala, his whole idea was let's pay them the same so that you can attract the

Daniel Herbruger (40:47.064)
people. Now you might be wondering, so should we pay teachers more? Well, the way teachers wages are affected is because you have government in bed with education. If you were to remove that, you would allow the market system to really set those wages and to really, you know, kind of kind of vet for the best of the best. But that's not the case. And so going back to your question, why is that respect level not

present in the United States. And obviously most countries also have their governments in bed with education world. It gets to a cultural level, but in terms of just the socioeconomic situation, it is just hard to make that change when especially as Roger mentioned, you know, with inflation and stuff, it's actually just kicking more and more educators out of the profession. But the biggest culprit I would say is the fact that the one who has the ability to kind of modify and to affect those wages

is the biggest employer, which is the public school sector. Now, are we going to change that? I don't think it's going to change anytime soon. I feel like whatever we can or whatever families can get from this conversation is hopefully the right mindset, the right processes and tools to start changing things from within, you know, from the household level in the hopes that that will make our country a better place.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (42:06.912)
Yeah, I'm going to jump in here because there's a large homeschooling movement that's going on right now. And I think ultimately that's the way you exercise your, your rights as an individual is you have to resist against institutions and ideas that ultimately create harm. See, I think this is a part of a larger social engineering, PSYOP that exists. and what I mean by that is I think our system is ultimately in oligarchy that's run

the billionaires that we don't see, because they fund the politicians, they fund the campaigns, they become the puppet masters that enter into the government. So they're ultimately not representing the constituency, they are representing the, the needs of that oligarchy. Those are the ones the lobbyists that are funding them, you cannot get elected without the financial support that exists from that high level government. And

those who are in that position of power and they've achieved that position of power, to keep them in that position of power, they have to kind of be the Wizard of Oz that exists behind the veil. And I think the veil is getting lifted, but there's a lot of things about how a society can be controlled. teachers are not, teachers are not reimbursed at a high level, nor are they going to be rewarded

their effectiveness. It is a system that whether you are the best teacher or the worst teacher, you will get paid the same. That's a socialist idea that's ultimately dispiriting. It does not enhance motivation, it decreases it. So you go into a school system, you can be with a 20 year veteran who is the worst teacher in the school and a young person who works so much harder than they do.

and gets gets paid much, much less. A phys ed teacher who might be playing games would get paid the same as somebody who is a physics teacher. Right. And that's not to devalue how important physical education is in school. But when you talk about things from a socialist perspective, you know, it is much more difficult to obtain the knowledge of physics and have expertise in that than to run a phys ed class. The idea that they all make the same is a socialist idea. It is dispiriting.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (44:32.03)
And so you have to think about what is being socially engineered within the public school system. I was there, I was with you. so, Kelly, you and I've had these conversations over the years and we talked about Matthias Desmond and Matthias Desmond's, you know, work on understanding totalitarian regimes and what happens in a society before it really begins to devolve into that. And one of what does happen is those who are in those positions of power, one way they maintain their power.

is by creating that confusion, by creating that division. Like it's like, don't look over here, don't look at us, don't critically examine what we are doing, look at each other. I'm gonna say a quote here and it's from a German historian and philosopher, Hannah Arendt, A -R -E -N -D -T. She lived between 1906 to 1975 and so she actually saw what happened in Nazi Germany.

This is her quote,

You can do whatever you want. As we sit here in 2024, there is open public debate about what is a man or what is a woman. The Olympics just occurred where the Olympics are going on right now and what's in the news. I don't know when this is going to be released, but a biological male boxer is identifying as a woman and hit another elite Olympic boxer so hard

Daniel Herbruger (46:06.19)
you

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (46:26.026)
that she stopped after one punch, walked off quit and said, this is unjust. We've devolved into that degree of depravity. We cannot longer think for ourselves. We don't know what is lies. We do not know what is truth. And so you go into a so you go into a public school system and they are not teaching you to question this with logical discourse, with evaluation at a high level of critical analysis. They're telling you to respect it. They're teaching you to respect

that this is how another person chooses to live. And they're getting to question whether or not 50 genders exist, whether a man can give birth, because we've lost our sense of objective reality or objective truth. And that is mass conditioned in the social engineering in school, where kids can now go into schools and they can change their names and they can change their genders.

everything is being placed underneath the government rule, the concept of mental health, and we'll get into this, can be mass conditioned and facilitated to control youth, to believe that there is something inherently broken, there is something ill within them. We can put them in mind and mood altering drugs will make them easily controllable. It is not facilitating the resilience, it is not facilitating the questioning of these ideals, it is not propping up a generation to innovate.

and to question their government and to make sure that their government is working for the people by the people. No, that's not happening. And so that social engineering is occurring. And if you do not have teachers who are willing to fight the system, which you're not, and we're starting to see less and less teachers involved in the system because there's a mass awakening, because there's a greater awareness of what this has done to condition many. We have a fragile generation.

When you have over 20 % of people on psychiatric drugs who don't know themselves anymore, their identity is based on a characteristic, not on their hearts, not on their collective humanity, right? We are collective as a human. You are not a black man, a white man, an Indian, a transgender, a woman, a man, we are human beings. And they want to divide us by those identity characteristics because what it does is it fuels disruption.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (48:49.45)
And when there is disruption, and when there was chaos, and when there is war, then we become dependent on that ruling class. If we give up our farms, if we give up our ability to critical think, our independence, right, we are dependent on them for everything, what to think, what to eat, what not to eat, we can get we can attach to ideas that give up our freedom, even if they're

in any way grounded in sound science, know, such as, you know, the climate agenda or the gender ideology, right? This is all representative of now a culture that has lost its ability to objectively test out reality. And this has been fueled in the public school system for 30, 40 years. I'm so blessed to have been able to be in that, in that school system.

between 2004 and 2012. And we saw it coming, Kelly. We examined it. We talked about it. We saw the fight. We saw what was happening. Every year was a new social engineering tactic, a new idea. Grades became inflated to the point where they didn't matter. There were no differences that would exist anymore. The differences did not exist anymore. If you didn't perform well in school, it's because of your home life. It's because of some trauma that they get to identify. There's trauma -informed care.

had to no longer have a standard or an expectation for performance. Kids did not have to get held back. If anyone was struggling, was because some characteristic that they had no control of, right? It is dispiriting. And we lost a moral foundation of right and wrong, of hard work, right? And about a way to treat each other respectfully. There is no same.

everyone is different and that diversity in society is so critical and necessary for our evolution and for our growth and everyone has value. Right. And it's interesting to look in the society what we value and what we devalue. Right. We have free pornography widely available for anyone at any other point in time. All the liquor stores remained open. All the liquor stores are open during COVID. Right. Yeah. And

Daniel Herbruger (51:06.67)
back in 2020.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (51:13.032)
What do we not value anymore? Competition in the same way, respect for each other, politicians the way they talk to each other. Yeah, Daniel, I'm going to then let you take over this. But one thing that just remind you that if you're a teacher and you agreed with everything he said, that there is one way to change your classroom to help this out. And that is with Socratic seminars and Socratic thinking. These students are, a lot of them are really just thirsty to actually think for themselves.

And it's funny because I don't know Daniel, if you've ever seen this, sometimes the students will come into my classroom. And because of that, I teach the way I teach where I reward independent thought, I reward them for taking risks. I'm sure you're very similar in your mindset. And at first they get they're hesitant, they're almost fearful, scared, they don't like me. And then one day, they just, I don't know, they'll raise their hand, and they pop off something where they're, they're afraid to say it, but they say it. And I look at them and I said, that's awesome. Hey, what do you guys think of that? Somebody challenge

This is a Socratic now. Remember, we got to talk. And all of a sudden, the world, their minds just open up and it's absolutely amazing to watch. And they begin to think for themselves. And I think we need more of that, but I'm going to let you, because I've seen, I've watched your stuff, you're awesome at it, but what are your thoughts on that entire thing as at least a start to kind of change our society?

Daniel Herbruger (52:29.186)
Ha

I am thrilled. I'm thrilled about it. And I think it starts by, you know, what I, what I tend to tell people when they ask me like, how do you run isocratic dialogue with middle and high school students? I always like to say it's not, it's not much about what you do. It's about what you don't do. And so let me repeat that what you, it's about what you don't do than what you do. And so for the mom or the dad driving right now, you know, they're listening, listening to us through podcast. It's really about.

you having the true belief that what your child has to say might be relevant to an interesting conversation. So one of the things that you shouldn't do is interrupt. Most adults, if we're honest, you know, once the tile starts going in the wrong direction in a response, we want to jump in immediately. And I'm not saying there's not, there's no times to jump in, but you want to let that play out.

and then go back to it in the way you know, when we can get into some of the specifics. But when we think about a Socratic, you know, a regular conversation, which might be more like a Socratic dialogue, versus the seminar, we use a text as a reference. So we're not trying to just get their opinions, because usually that's misunderstood, right? And rightfully so, because if all you want to do is get the child's opinion, you know, most of them think they should have pizza for breakfast, right? We use a text to use to kind of refer back

and to drive in some, some content, some ideas, some vocabulary, but by you restraining yourself by simply allowing the process to play out by truly listening, instead of just waiting to respond without thinking, the child is going to be feel respected. and it's going to lead to a culture of dialogue, even if it's in the car. So it's really about what you stop doing now to talk about some things that might enhance a classroom.

Daniel Herbruger (54:28.906)
or a home, I'll share a few examples that I have used in the classroom. I would start by asking if a classroom was a country, what country would that be? Would it be the United States? Would it be Guatemala? Would it be China? I mean, you name it. And the way you can tell how a country would be run is by the students response. So a lot of kids these days, you know, if they drop something, let's say I dropped this, they would say

it fell as opposed to I dropped it. So one simple process is bringing in personal responsibility by who dropped it, right? Because that immediately gives them responsibility. But it is no different from what's happening with the engineering that Roger mentioned in the United States in which we're making people victims as opposed to looking inward. Every time I go to Guatemala, I am always thrilled that as soon as I land, get off the plane and go through customs and

get my bags and stuff. The people there are so happy. I mean, they're grateful and they always say, yeah, thanks to God. They're always thanking God. They're happy. They're joyful. That's not what I see when I travel in airports in our beautiful country of the United States. So a lot of it goes back to gratitude. But another process might be, you know, if a child has a problem, what most American teachers and parents do is they immediately want to find a solution.

to it just as a government, right? You bring a problem to the government and guess what? They want a new tax, a new regulation to solve that problem. Well, if you run your classroom the same way, you're no different than the government, right? Or if you run your household the same way. So instead, ask your students or your kids to come up with two to three solutions to that problem before they even come to you. So by setting that process, you immediately, so especially with Socratic,

If you want to run Socratic culture, it's got to be a culture, not just a dialogue. And that happens in every aspect of classroom and household. And I'll share one last one and we could go on for more. But the other one, and you've probably seen this in the classroom, when a student in the US raises their hand, they expect an immediate response. I do the opposite. I make them wait because there's power in that. And as a society, if we learn to wait,

Daniel Herbruger (56:53.838)
we will learn to be less dependent on government. And obviously before, know, parents and, you know, fellow educators start thinking, well, this guy's crazy. How would he make students wait? Well, you make them wait because you create the right processes. And I always tell my students, you guys can make 90 to 95 % of decisions in this class because they have clarity on the rules and what they can and cannot do just as, you know, our country should be run, us having clarity on the freedom that we can, you know, the sphere of freedom.

And there's, there, there is that 5 % of decisions that have to be run by me, but that just gives them so much autonomy and it, it, it hopefully reflects more like what the United States should be in that, you know, we are a free people. And then there is that 5 % of things that, know, we're, we're governed by, if you will, by our consent by, by the government. But beyond that, we have free reign in 95 % of our decisions. And if you create the right processes in the classroom and at

the same thing is going to be felt in those places.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (57:59.742)
One of the things that, that does occur in public education. don't think, again, I can't speak for all teachers, but I think there is, there's a system where you are overseen by administration. And so you, you know, you're scored every year, I guess, for lack of a better term. And Roger and I had this conversation a long time ago. It's almost as if sometimes when an administrator would walk into a classroom and every single student was just kind of staring down at their book, all quiet, you

everything in the classroom was clean and proper, that that teacher would somehow be rewarded. They were doing a good job because there was no students were doing anything bad. A long time ago, I looked at them I said, that's not going to be my classroom. It's going to be very vocal. It's going to be very, like you said, Socratic. I didn't even realize I was really doing it all those years back, but that's exactly what it was. are your thoughts

on that because I still think that that exists. Somehow, think public school teachers, they feel like they're going to be judged if they would allow their classes to have more voice, to have more autonomy, to be able to think for themselves. I jump in there because I want to get your thoughts on this. To me, it's always a, there's so much like a language around controlling your classroom or managing your classroom. Like there is really a fear of loss of control. Correct. That seems to be so ingrained in teachers. think they were even

taught that way, like the training of a teacher is so much on classroom management. Don't you think there's a like a fear based approach to viewing kids? that's what I was getting to is I do believe that many teachers teach in fear. They're afraid to maybe take some of the risks that they need to take in order to get kids to really to think for themselves. My question to both of you is don't you think that has origins in how

business owners thought about their employees. I don't want to use the word slave -like kind of state, but it's almost like a slave -like mindset or mentality because public school systems really were developed to train factory workers, right? We were an industrial -based country. And so the mindset of the elite of the owner was that your employees...

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:00:19.776)
they needed to be disciplined. They needed to focus on these tasks for long extended periods of time. Like if you're just creating the widget, for example, there needed to be deference to authority, you know, a lot of loyalty. And of course you had to manage behavior. You had to increase the work output of a large group of people with the belief that the harder that they work, the more productive they are.

that they can then get a raise or they can rise up in that in that company. So there feels like there's a mentality that is owner business owner versus blue collar worker, that mentality of an owner and a slave like mentality that gets mass conditioned into the development of teachers where there's so much fear about that behavior being out of control. And I wonder, know, Daniel, you talked about teachers giving up on your brother.

You know, some of the some of the best innovators and the smartest people are the ones who question authority. And those people in a public school environment are often labeled. Now they're drugged. Now they're you know, they're viewed as, as a danger to society even. So there's like a punishment of, of those who oppose the authority. To me, I see it as mass conditioning, I want to get you know, your opinions on

Daniel Herbruger (01:01:43.662)
I mean, if I may bring potentially a different, perspective, but maybe something I've learned over the years on what you just described. I want to say about 10, 12 years ago, kind like 2012 or so, the world was a much different place. And the models of education that allowed for more flexibility

where we're in vogue. And I want to say over the past few years, I have learned to be more cautious on that model. And what I've done in you my, my, my experience in the classroom is combining the accuracy and the intentionality of factory level processes, if you will. And for the record, I joined the factory line at age 10 and Guatemala and my dad's factory. So I learned a lot about

how important that is. And the way you combine that with the classroom is if you standardize processes and you automate them, then you can create the right conditions for the vibrancy and for the uniqueness of each child to emerge. So I'll give you an example of, you know, going back to Kel's question on, you know, being evaluated by administrators and you know, what happens when a classroom is chaotic.

I find that in my experience, kids thrive when there's clarity. And that clarity might entail, this is the time for full, complete, like military type of silence. And they also thrive when they know this is time to chill and to talk and to party. The big mistake I think is a lot of educators, you know, go one way or the other. So either you have, you know, full laissez -faire, like let kids run the place, or you have the full military. And I think that in my experience,

kids really thrive when you combine those two, especially because we are at a time where all culture, you if we, if we kind of let the kids run the whole thing, sadly, I think we're giving up on our responsibility to be protectors of these students, you know, and they're, you know, just their whole environment, if you will. And so by creating those pockets of, of craziness, if you will, of chaos, which might be like free time, but then also those discipline.

Daniel Herbruger (01:04:07.746)
habits, again, following the factory model in that, you know, just think of a very simple process, you have a factory line, right, the conveyor belt, every the conveyor belt is the same, but you can bottle different products, right. And so if you think of it in those terms, it is the same, like the kid will go into a classroom. And the standardization of those processes that allows them to thrive. One thing I've done and I this would might be a suggestion

for fellow educators and I will proudly say I have been evaluated and I've honestly never fear those and that's not because you know I think of anything better than myself instead it's really because I'm confident that the processes are in place so every time and I've had even administrators ask me like you did not seem nervous at all like explain that and I'll just say A I am passionate about education and B I'm confident

being very intentional and thoughtful about the right processes. So one process that really, really works is allowing students to have, and again, this is dependent on, you know, district, school, what have you, allowing kids to have five minutes of free time at the end of every class within a certain structure, whatever it is, you you're allowed to play with, if you will. But having that expectation,

For the students on the one hand you have, you know, very strict expectations and whatever it is you're doing even if it's a Socratic So I'll give you an example in Socratic Socratic's we use the equivalent of a microphone like literally a microphone kind of like this one To indicate who is going to speak so with that you avoid the chaos that might disrupt and destruct the classroom culture So the kids know that if we're in a Socratic session, you know, it's a full 30 40 minutes of like complete

and then there's an escape valve, right? But if you go in both extremes, nothing is gonna work. So I find that finding those pockets of just like an exhaust valve, if you will, allows them to thrive. And it also, I mean, if you wanna put it in terms of, know, kind of like the experience teachers have, it allows you to have, I don't wanna say a bargaining chip, because you don't wanna see your students in those terms, but it really gives them something to kind of look.

Daniel Herbruger (01:06:29.542)
look, look, look for at the end of class. But obviously, you know, if you run Socratic as well, they're still going to enjoy those those, you Socratic sessions. But having that free time at the end with, you know, a few variables that you whatever variables you want to control is, I think it does wonders. And it allows for that healthy balance between giving them that freedom, which if you bring it at a country level, the reason the US got to where we are in a good

is because of the respect of contracts, right? In the real, you know, free market aspect of the US, it was really because property rights were protected on like places like Guatemala, which thankfully we've done a lot of progress in that regard. But there's a reason why a lot of people decide to hedge against risk by bringing in, you know, some some wealth, if you will, into the United States just to protect it, because there's more of a property rights situation. So the same thing happens in the classroom. We owe our students.

clear rules, the clear rules of the game, because that's how they thrive, just like in any economy.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:07:39.052)
I want to take this in a different direction, Daniel. The cell phone usage, social media usage in the schools, I think back in 2000, maybe 2008, 2009, we started to see a push for technology in education. they were, we first had computer carts and then, and then every kid had a computer. And for a while there was a lot of innovation going on, I think. But

I'm seeing a bit of a different struggle, particularly with kids being able to communicate. So when we talk about Socratic, there's many kids that just kind of refuse to speak, don't know how to speak, don't want to speak. They want to bury their heads in their phones. They want to bury their heads in social media and so on. So I'm curious as to what your thoughts are. Are we seeing that globally where the phones are kind of taken over and it's actually hurting education?

and communication and all the necessary skills. Are you seeing that as well?

Daniel Herbruger (01:08:42.734)
we are now I'll share an interesting story about a teacher in Guatemala during the school lockdown back in 2020. Guatemala had one of the most tyrannical lockdowns in the world. Really. We couldn't even go back, you know, even, you know, having a dual passport, trying to get into Guatemala, they would not allow us to, well, basically to fly because they canceled all flights.

A teacher, know, the way it happened here in the States is everybody was essentially given an iPad or a Chromebook and, know, they went into virtual education in Guatemala just because you have a huge rural aspect and it's still a relatively poor country. Although again, classes is rising. One teacher actually rode his bike into the kind of like the main square of, know, this town, which barely had any paved streets.

And he started teaching from his bicycle, which had like a rack on the back and on the front. And he put, is at the time when people were obsessed with whatever coverings and what have you. So he had a plastic cover. And so he had like an outdoor classroom. And the reason he did that is because there was no access to, you know, the bandwidth that you need to run a virtual classroom. So those are the challenges they're facing now. The technology has improved so much

there has been a tremendous adoption of cell phone usage, tablets and computers everywhere essentially in the world, including Guatemala. Now what I'm seeing in the States is a lot of this goes back to whether teachers or parents have the backbone to challenge the iPad or the cell phone use. Like when did we lose the authority to say we are not using it now? Like even right now as we're having this amazing conversation, there are some expected

courtesy rules, you you don't see me on my phone, right? None of us is doing something else. There's there's something about doing what's right. So what I would say about that is it really depends on the parents. And I will share an experience I had in the United States with because, you know, I've just been and I want to be careful when I say I've been very strict. I will say I try to run learning environments as I think a government should be run, which is with limited power.

Daniel Herbruger (01:11:00.322)
but with clear rules. Once you have that, everything thrives. And so in terms of iPad rules and technology, my experience has been like very, very low tech. And so I had this one student who, when a student learned how strict this expectation was, and I would actually enforce it and consistently follow through on that, the kid would get like physically and visibly

nervous just by being away from his iPad. Now the beautiful ending of the story was after a full semester, mom came to me and she said, I just want to thank you because my child regained some self control just by having that window of time away from the iPad. Now the whole conversation on, you know, how, does that, how does that apply at home? That's a whole different thing, but I would just want to inspire.

teachers and parents to say, you know, if you know this is harming your child, you have the authority to say no. I'll use, and we could even spend some time on Montessori, but Montessori just politically speaking, I have my doubts on that, but at least her thought process on her whole idea was the environment impacts the child, right? So you follow the child, you curate the environment. And if there's something not working with the child,

The first thing you wanna do is think, well, what variable could I alter in the environment to modify this? being that at the border of social engineering, we could also use that to our, for a good and freedom enhancing goal, which would be if you take those iPads away and in their place, you bring in something like Socratic practice. Well, guess what? Socratic practice allows,

12 students, if you have a group of 12, to bring in their best thoughts and ideas, to be held accountable, to flesh those out, to challenge those in a respectful manner. Whereas, you know, what happens in social media, what happens with the internet? Well, you kind of lose the value that the students can actually get. So by altering those elements in the environment, you're going to see tremendous changes. You know, back in when we were in Guatemala with the Acton model,

Daniel Herbruger (01:13:19.988)
one of the things we wanted to inspire students was to become readers. And we had parents come into us and say, you know, my, can't get my child to read. And I would always ask them like, how often does your child see you reading or even sees a book in the house? Right. So those things I think would give people more of you know, if you want to combine again, going back to the, the predictability of a factory model, but then also the personalization of

of personal model, not to be redundant, but I think there's value in both. And just like with, you know, the silence and, you know, the the chill time, if you will, you don't want to go in any extreme, we want to find the healthy combination to benefit from both.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:14:07.606)
Kind of enter the fourth quarter of this podcast a little bit. want to just enter into one final discussion point, because one of the things I'm concerned in is the decline in civil discourse and it is, it's the consequences down the line. I am at an all time low when it comes to feeling optimistic about the future of our, you know, politics and really even question whether

political leaders are nothing more than paid for puppets. So we're in a situation where our politics have become so dumbed down. And then there are so many lies that there's a portion of people who just don't care anymore. They've given up on the entire system. And then there's a small proportion of people that scream at each other, believing the lies. There was a movie back in 2005 called Idiocracy. If you remember, was greater be beavers and butthead,

Yeah, and you kind of go into the future and you see like the United States kind of devolves into this depraved situation where it's run by idiots. And we've lost all sense of like, you know, just the science has devolved and the whole thing. And so here we are, we're in a situation where we have two candidates. On the Democratic side, it's an unelected woman.

who got 3 % of the primary vote when she ran. So she is now the candidate for the Democratic Party. And she was never elected by the people in any sense, but yet their whole platform is around saving democracy. So we have to be idiots to believe that the person who is unelected to have that position, you know, can anyway stand for democracy. We'd have to not know what democracy is, right?

And so because we're just divided into two parties, which is a huge problem, people are just going to go and they're going to pull down the lever on what team they're on. So it doesn't even matter who's there. The second person is Donald Trump, who is extremely divisive and really does struggle to articulate a lot of key issues about the complexity of our geopolitical world, our economy, and the government. Elected the first

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:16:33.371)
drain the swamp. He did nothing of the sort. Government got larger. I'm a libertarian. I'll speak to this. He didn't meet any of the libertarian values. We spend more money. He is directly associated with inflation, although it'll get tied to Biden and Biden's a big part of it too. But we're not smart enough anymore to understand economically about his role in this when you continue to print money, whether it's to solve a problem with COVID or whatever that may

continuing to grow the debts and continue to print money has consequences. And I feel like there's just this larger uniparty that's available that is just there for entertainment. And that entertainment in no way is accurately articulating what the real legitimate problems are. And so we're just gonna fall into the same trap if we continue to stay in this system. And so my question is, where are we going? mean, are either two of

optimistic that the foundations of what America was originally built on from their founding fathers and the Constitution is going to prevail and there is and this is cyclical and the people will be able to rise up again and freedom will prevail and we'll be able to in some way decrease the centralized government that has more and more control of our everyday lives or do we fall in the line? Are we walking in this path of idiocracy?

I'm optimistic. am. think that it is cyclical. I look back on the history of the United States and the different movements. Had there been social media back in the 60s, had there been social media back in the 20s, in the early 1900s, I think you would have seen the same kind of division, the same types of messages. I do believe it's cyclical. The one thing where I'm optimistic

is I'm just seeing a lot more younger generation and individuals that are willing to ask tougher questions and not be so for lack of a better term brainwashed. I'm seeing that. Now that's that's not a lot, but I'm seeing a tiny movement in that. part of that is because they're learning how to use social media like X and others as a way to look at both sides to see, hey, this is what NBC told me. Well, let me go see what the other side there.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:18:57.898)
Somebody's teaching them that whether it be parents or teachers, I do see a small movement in it. I'm optimistic. I have to be. Where else are we going to go with this? for now, yeah, I think that people just turn on their TVs or they go to their social media channels and confirmation bias is absolutely just a part of their lives. And you could sit there until you were blue in the face and throw all these counter arguments that are factual against them and they will look at you.

as if you are an idiot. They will not listen because I think they went through a system that kind of did not teach them how to think for themselves. They feel better in masses. Like if I just agree with the vast majority of my friends, I'm good. Does it make sense? I mean, it's scary when facts don't matter. And I do think the whole mask thing was a social experiment. You know, my viewpoint on that. No, I don't. Can you repeat your view? You haven't said it at all during a podcast.

Yeah, but I think it's a social experiment and you get to see the degree of conformity that exists. Critical analysis didn't matter anymore and that's what scared me about COVID. I mean, it really did reveal a lot and I'm hoping for the post -COVID awakening, but I wanna get a sense on Daniel's thought about optimism for the future in this and what direction he thinks we're heading.

Daniel Herbruger (01:20:20.896)
So I'm optimistic as a believer. I feel like whatever happens, I already won. I'll start with that. But then working with students, can't but be optimistic. Just seeing how much of a critical thinkers they are and how we do underestimate how well they can think and how much they can do. Now, being optimistic does not necessarily mean that

we might not go through difficult times. My grandma was abducted back in the 90s. I was like seven or eight and she was abducted by the leftist guerrillas in Guatemala. And I had two classmates in school that were actually abducted. So we kind of come from the future, if you will, if we let this get out of control. So things can get bad. And the reason things have been, you know, people have been careless, if you will, is because as a country,

We've been so wealthy, really. So are people gonna wake up when they see a shift in, you know, in the United States economic prowess, right? Is that going to change? Well, if that changes and people become more reflective and grateful for life, maybe that's positive. So it depends on, you know, what we're optimistic about. Are we going to become a less materialistic society? Maybe, right?

Now, the problem is there is a direct link between the reduction of purchase power and your ability to make financial decisions and your dependence on government. If you want to be a minimalist, which I think there's some virtues in that, that's fine, but don't force that on anybody. Make sure that that's by choice, not by some external situation, especially coming from the government. So I'm excited. I'm hopeful.

And that's simply because you're seeing the push for freedom all over the country. I was recently at an event in Michigan in Grand Rapids, Michigan Acton University, which was actually my third time attending a couple of times. That was almost 10 years ago. this decade later, I was able to get back. We had about 70 people from Brazil attending in a conference of about 800 or so people. So almost 10 % of the people.

Daniel Herbruger (01:22:43.488)
attending that conference on the principles of freedom. so basically, the way Acton promotes their their mission is good intentions with sound economics, right? So all these ideas sound good, but let's bring in the sound economic factor. So the fact that so many people from Brazil were interested in this, you're seeing a movement in in Argentina, you're even seeing it in Guatemala as well. And I see, you know, I agree with Roger in terms

you know, the both, you both options that we have in the United States, they're not ideal. A lot of people, you know, they're, big on Trump and, know, probably our best choice at this moment. But when you really unpack the policies that both are promoting, it is really big government, right? How do you make those things happen? It is really more and more government, government going into bed with business. So that's, that's going to be a challenge, but I'm just excited and optimistic

creativity emerges when people face challenges. And that's what happened in 2020. What happened in the United States was everybody and their brother was flush with cash, you know, because we were just printing and printing and printing. Whereas in Guatemala, there was no stimulus. And so guess what? People started creating things. They got creative. So maybe that's going to be the route. To me, my recipe is personal growth and the Lord. I feel like those two kind of protect you. Obviously, you want to be good stewards, too. But

But there's reason to be hopeful simply because people are waking up. Now, is it going to be pain free? I don't know, right? Because financially speaking, a lot of the policies and choices that governments are making are making the United States be more like a Guatemala, right? Where you have a lot of people, especially the young, you know, finding it harder and harder to get into homes and just, you know, right, rise up board, right?

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:24:41.632)
Danny, you've spoken a lot towards gratitude today and your faith and your belief. Do you think there's a spiritual component to what is going on right now? Is there the eternal battle between good and evil and dark and light? And that in some ways we're here, our souls are incarnated here at this time to be part of that experience. And the awakening is that awakening of Christ consciousness.

of the what with inside us to be able to move closer to the to the light you think there's a spiritual component to everything that's happening.

Daniel Herbruger (01:25:20.898)
You know, I will humbly say I read my Bible every day. Now it's a very difficult to understand, a text that's very difficult to fully understand as much as I would want to say I fully understand it and it's super simple. I would just say that from all I've read, I would definitely say there's a spiritual component to what's going on. And I would say that's why we could

That's why we could be hopeful in this situation, just because it is bringing more and more people to really ask the hard questions. is also from people I know, more and more people are turning their eyes to God rather than government, just because government has really disappointed people. So I can be hopeful with that.

I really became a believer right after my brother's accident, which is not that common for someone in your teenage years to really become a believer. But I looked around and I realized I have everything I could want. My parents were amazing with us. They had the opportunity to provide us, I want to say more than the average middle -class individual in the United States would get.

But that wasn't satisfying, right? And then the medical system couldn't do anything beyond what they did for my brother. So what was my last option? It was really just getting to know Christ. And as you navigate life, especially as we're going through, I guess I'll reference 2020. When 2020 happened, we were actually in Mumbai, India. We were on a trip that spring break.

We were having breakfast at the hotel, know, different time zone. I saw at the time was president Trump who actually started the, you know, declare the emergency, if you will, of shutting, you know, whatever restrictions or the emergency was declared. And I told my wife, it's going to be very difficult to get back to the U S because they were canceling flights out of, out of Europe. and so we were blessed. We were finally able to get back. But by the time we got back, it was too late. I mean, grocery stores were empty. everything

Daniel Herbruger (01:27:31.106)
chaotic. Everybody was like locked down. And the moment I realized this was a spiritual thing is when I learned they were trying to shut down churches. And I told my wife, we are not going to acquiesce on this. This is a spiritual thing. We are going to continue doing life as we should. And for most Americans, the United States never really shut down. But people were just so scared of a virus. And I want to say I have a really good friend of mine.

We were talking about how we weren't taking any precautions because we were just going out and doing our own thing. And he asked me like, are you not scared of dying? And I said, I don't want to die, but I'm not scared. Like I know the Lord. And he is like, I am actually scared. And that's why he was complying with all these experts. So when you have a greater power, I feel like the the stress, if you will, of thinking that government is the answer.

Or if Donald Trump doesn't get elected or if Kamala gets elected or vice versa. Like I'm hoping things go well, but ultimately when you, when you have the Lord, everything really becomes spiritual. Cause that's, that's all you

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:28:47.53)
Well said. And I've heard that sentiment from a lot of people where they do see this as an opportunity to connect with God and to surrender and a deep trust in that we're part of an important time. And that important time can bring problems and chaos, but often what happens after when certain institutions are, the veil is lifted on how

harms and it's corruption and so forth. It's the opportunity to rebuild from something that is broken. And that's the value of the awakening. And we mentioned earlier about, you can learn a lot about what a society values when you have free pornography and the liquor stores remain open and so forth, but they close the churches. Or how much you pay a teacher, right? These things are reflections of the values of our society. A lot of things have to change. You know, and this is what happens. You get complacent when you have a certain standard of living. You got Netflix.

and sports for entertainment. You can get your food from the grocery store. And even relative poverty in the United States is wealth in some other third world countries, right? So there's a standard of living you just get used to. And then you seek more and more from that, the government, you expect the government to always provide. And fear, fear provocation is a manner of control, right? And so if we give too much over to the government, then we rely upon

in order to live. And maybe the, the, the greater lesson in the, in the shift in all this is we become less materialistic. we get to focus on what matters. Maybe we become more independent. there's a greater level of, self -sufficiency that can be built and maybe taking care of our fellow man. Like I do think in a lot of ways that the, the, best way in order to, you know, create a region or a country.

is through small communities because within small communities, you are loyal and devoted to each other, right? You take care of each other. And that's some of the things I worry about about our medical system is when it becomes so impersonal and it becomes like a fast food delivery of healthcare where you don't have any connection or responsibility to your patients. You become emotionally detached. And I think a lot of that is, you know, purposely kind of driven and pushed in our society, but the veil has been lifted.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:31:11.03)
post COVID. So as we end this, do want you to kind of promote your critical thinking schooling. Who are your customers? know, who are you working with? And if people are interested in that, where can they go to find out

Daniel Herbruger (01:31:27.886)
Thank you. Yes, it's critical thinking schooling .com. Critical thinking schooling .com. You can also look it up as Socratic Kid. It was born as SocraticKid .com. And then we basically relabeled it as critical thinking schooling just to kind of reflect more of what we were striving to do. We've graduated two cohorts. It was actually born in 2021 when the whole craziness was going

And we have a full year curriculum of texts that are pro -freedom and anti -freedom texts. So we expose our students, texts like the Magna Carta or Alexis de Tocqueville Democracy in America, and all the way to the Communist Manifesto. And the idea is to really get them to be critical thinkers by exposing them to those texts.

It's just been, I think, an amazing and if the listeners can go to my site, Critical Thinking Schooling, you'll read the parent testimonials. The dialogues are transformative. And that's just because it's not about just letting the kids opine on the text. Instead, it's about understanding short excerpts and then also creating a culture of respectful dialogue and disagreement. And I'll share an interesting dialogue we had back

2022 right after if you guys remember the the vaccine mandate that was resigned by the Supreme Court. We actually have one full month of historical Socratic historical Supreme Court rulings. And so that actually became one of the texts. Obviously, it's a longer one. So it was just a short excerpt. And some of our students were vaccinated. Some were not. Some of their parents were. Some of them weren't. And they were able to have a respectful dialogue.

on what the ruling said. So we were trying to understand the ultimate question on that ruling was who has the power to force you to make medical decisions? Because that was the whole discussion by the Supreme Court justices. So parents are welcome to go to our site. We are starting our third cohort this late August. So they can just go, they apply. And as you talked about small communities, it is

Daniel Herbruger (01:33:41.57)
I don't want to say a cumbersome process, but it's a longer process because applying, I am not working with the child. I'm working with the parents. So the parent gets to know me. I get to know them. We get to go through that process, know, interviewing process, getting to know if we're really a good match, you know, to serve that family. And then if we determine if it's a go, then they join. But usually I think we've only had one family who did not join us. Everyone else joins us.

just because we're so aligned and our families come from different states, different backgrounds as well. But our curriculum is comprehensive. Obviously it is per freedom. We do list our values as well, but we wanna be able to provide students with an understanding in a carefully curated environment of both sides of freedom. And it's just been beautiful, even seeing our, because it's basically divided with an overarching question for every month.

our month on US history, we present them with, you know, like a Howard Zinn US history. And then we have, you know, a more right leaning version of US history. So students really get to see what's being exposed. And I am always delighted to hear how it is from them and from their critical thinking that they're able to call out inconsistencies in the text. so people are welcome to join. We host students from sixth to twelfth grade. We actually had one student who

started with us, graduated high school, and then on her first semester of college, she's like, I still want to be in. And so we got permission from the existing families for her to still join us. And it was amazing. So I'll be delighted if we could get new families from this conversation. And again, they'll get a chance to, before their child can join us, we run a video conversation because it is a community -based situation.

Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D., ABPP (01:35:34.486)
Well, this was an amazing conversation. So many different directions, thought provoking, really thought provoking. Daniel, I'm so glad that you, that we connected and that you reached out. mean, it's been a delight being exposed to, to your thinking, your ideas and having this conversation. Kel, amazing to get you back in the studio again, buddy. And to, know, really have this conversation and, and speak about what's happening in our country and having that dialogue. think people who are listening.

They appreciate the viewpoints and getting a sense of where multiple people are thinking about the direction of our country. I know there is a large homeschool movement and people are looking for other ways to educate their kids, including exposure to programs just like this. Daniel saw, you know, I hope the opportunity exists for people to check it out and, you know, really think deeply about who you want your kids to be when it comes to education and its implications, not only for your own kids, but your grandkids and their grandkids.

because there's, you know, ideals that are certainly at risk. There are freedoms and liberties that we have voluntarily handed over over the past 20 years, unknowingly, unwittingly by just trusting the authorities. And as we know now, as the veil has been lifted, we are not to blindly trust authority. They work for us. Your physicians work for us. Your teachers work for us. The government works for us. Right. And, you know, we have the right as a free market and free people to either vote those people out, to not support them.

or to not support their ideas with our dollars, right? And you have to resist sometimes ideas that are harmful. So I want to thank you both for a radically genuine conversation. Thank

Daniel Herbruger (01:37:11.488)
And Roger, if may I