Radically Genuine Podcast with Dr. Roger McFillin

Welcome to the radically genuine podcast. I am Dr. Roger McFillin. Sean, to grow this movement, we require whistleblowers. You know, those who are working in the psychiatric industry, brave souls who chose to speak out against the very system they work in. Those who have witnessed firsthand the devastating effects of standard mental health care practices. And those who choose to tell their story, the struggles and their fight for a more compassionate and science -based approach to mental health.

I know it's difficult. You know, these people do rely on income that the system creates to support their family. Most themselves have invested in the education to become a licensed psychiatrist, a nurse, nurse practitioner, family physician, psychologist, or therapist. Many have student loans to pay. However, I truly believe we can unite and begin to make a difference. We reside in a toxic culture. We're pushing toxic drugs as a remedy.

to the understandable emotional struggles many are experiencing. We're poisoning our bodies with toxic chemicals because the advertising agencies are telling us to. We're poisoning our minds with toxic ideologies and pharmaceuticals because the medical establishment funded by the pharmaceutical conglomerate tells us this is medicine. We require ethical and moral clinicians to speak out.

Our guest today is unique because she experienced the painful consequences of the allopathic medical system, misdiagnosing a common health condition as a psychiatric disorder and went down the hellish path of experiencing known adverse drug reactions being misrepresented as mental illness. Her journey through misdiagnosis and mistreatment revealed a dark side of medicine.

that too many suffer from in silence. She too was trained as psychiatric medical professional and was fully exposed to the harms of the psychiatric conceptualizations and drugs. She participated in that system and she is here today to tell her story. Neseret Bemient is the owner of Return to Wholeness Healing Services and creator.

Sean (02:27.81)
of Confessions of a Psych Nurse on YouTube. She's a holistic mental health advocate with 17 years of service as a mental health and addiction nurse. She practiced psychiatric nursing in the conventional Canadian mental health system. Neseret was also a service user for 13 years and was diagnosed with anti -depressant induced bipolar disorder and prescribed multiple psychiatric medications. And going on...

in her life to recover from that and reverse that condition is a very meaningful discussion for us. She was actually told that that condition was chronic and lifelong as many have been, and would have to take psychiatric medications for the rest of her life. She did not want to believe this for herself. She didn't want to believe it for her clients.

and through metabolic therapies, lifestyle interventions, and probably many other approaches, was able to put that condition into remission and start a new career for herself. I see her as a whistleblower because it's someone who's really was not able to continue practicing as she was trained. And I believe that...

entering into the mental health system as it's currently constructed will create worsening mental health. And I think we have all statistics to support that. So in fact, if people continue to progress and practice as they were trained, we will continue to see a deterioration of our physical and mental well -being. Neseret, I want to welcome you to the Radically Genuine Podcast.

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (04:18.2)
Thank you so much. This is an honor and a privilege to have this conversation with you and for the fact that you've created this sacred space for people to have these types of conversations because it's unlikely in the traditional system. So it's really wonderful and validating and raising awareness also. It's a wonderful gift.

Sean (04:45.346)
Thank you. You're very kind. Now we talked a few days ago and I found your story fascinating. So let's just start with the beginnings because you're an immigrant to Canada. You, from what I understand, you were born and you grew up in Ethiopia. Can you tell us a little bit about your younger life? What brought you to Canada and just your experiences in the culture of Ethiopia at that time?

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (05:12.248)
Absolutely. I was born in Ethiopia and I was there until about when I was 11 years old. My grandmother did not know how to read or write her entire life. She was in an arranged marriage by the time she was nine and had her first child when she was 14 years old. And my mother was taken out of her home when she was seven and sent to an American boarding school actually.

And so in 1991, which was during the first Gulf War, Ethiopia was ending one of the bloodiest civil wars in East Africa because air trends wanted to separate. And so my mother decided at that time that she wanted a better life for us. There was six of us children. I was the second. And so we ended up in Kenya, which is a neighboring country.

in a refugee camp for two years. And at that time we were supported by UNHCR and found sponsors to come to Canada and we were the lucky ones. There was, you know, thousands and thousands of refugees there. And, you know, there's always some unrest during in that area. And so we were blessed to come to Canada and

It was a cultural shock, you know, but at the same time, we felt like we had a new opportunity and a new life to start over and to be in a free country where we can get education. All of my six siblings are university educated. My mother also went back to school when she was 48 years old. While I was going through university, she was also redoing her social work degree and we've done quite well.

I think as a family, we have been incredibly resilient, even though there is quite a bit of intergenerational trauma that's rooted in the culture and the country and everything that we have gone through. And that's one interesting thing to me that, you know, growing up in Ethiopia, it was challenging because of the political situation and the country with

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (07:39.32)
having a lot of population and a lot of challenges. But I remember growing up, you know, my mother being afraid that her, our, my older brother would be drafted into war. And she was worried about the girls being raped by soldiers. So there was always talk of war. And so it was very challenging and very difficult, but we came through all of that.

and we were incredibly resilient as a family and we were lucky that we had this new life and new opportunity in a new country.

Sean (08:19.906)
So you use that word a few times, resilient. And I believe that's probably the primary reason I entered into a career in social services as a mental health specialist. And eventually as a psychologist was the unwavering belief in human resilience and the human spirit. I'm just curious to know like how that, how you define resilience, what it means to you.

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (08:48.472)
Well, I believe we all get a share of our challenges as human beings. I don't think there's anyone that has a perfect life. And.

We don't have any control over those things, such as where we are born, into what parents, into what circumstances, a political climate or the time, all these different forces that act on our lives. And our options are always to do the very best that we can in those circumstances and choose our attitude. Like,

Victor Frankl said in his book, Man's Search for Meaning. And so to me, resilience is not the fact that we are going to not have challenges in our lives, but how do we choose to respond to them and to make meaning out of them and find ways to create purpose and make a difference using that life.

or using those challenges and learn those lessons and move forward.

Sean (10:04.226)
beautiful definition of it. And I've always thought of adverse events and, you know, difficult emotions that we experience as opportunities, potentially even gifts for transformation. And I am routinely in the presence of people who've gone through horrific circumstances and through that have developed incredible wisdom. Yet over the last

20 years or more in Western societies, Canada, the United States, it appears that there's almost like this mind virus for the lack of a better word that communicates those same emotional experiences as if they're symptoms of some psychiatric condition or an illness that should push somebody to have to drug that experience or it's a medical condition that's somewhat outside of their control or

genetic, chemical imbalance, it's even communicated as, and we're pushed into the medical system in ways to treat it. That's a profound shift in humanity, our collective humanity, in the way that we have viewed resilience and a sense of purpose and meaning from previous generations. I personally believe the consequences of such approach are devastating, devastating to our human spirit.

Now you're a great example of someone who epitomizes resilience as your family and you've had to be exposed to circumstances that most can't imagine. What was your experience then entering into the educational system and actually choosing to go into a healthcare field where you focused on psychiatric nursing?

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (11:59.608)
Yeah, so I graduated from Dalhousie University in 2006. Despite all these challenges that I've had in my life, I graduated with honors and a full scholarship. And once I graduated from nursing with a Bachelor of Science nursing degree, my first job was in acute care in psychiatry. I was one of the...

nursing students who was going through the nursing program thinking, I think I've made a grave mistake because I'm not really interested in any of this. And then the last year of my nursing program, there was mental health and I just absolutely loved it because I was curious to figure out what was going on within myself and with my family and everything I was experiencing. And I was incredibly fascinated by...

human psychology and the emotional workings of people and trying to understand myself as well. So...

I remember being given a tour of the first, my job, the unit that I was going to work on. And we walked into the unit and I could hear somebody banging at the door and a few people kind of wandering the hallways, just kind of had this glazed look on their face. And then there was nurses rushing with medications. And I thought, well, this is really interesting.

because that was the first time that I was ever in a mental hospital. Prior to that, I've never really had that experience in Ethiopia. You know, there are people who die just giving childbirth because there's no, you know, medical access is very limited. So for me, it was an interesting experience to be there. And I started working.

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (14:03.16)
And I would say that was when my real education really started. And one thing I noticed right away is I would say the majority of people that we worked with had already significant history of trauma. The BC Women's Hospital reported that they did a research and their preliminary report was saying that mental health and addictions issues are preceded by trauma.

And that was kind of their finding. And that was the experience I had as well. Most of the time clients would come in and I would look through their chart and their information. And they've had a harrowing journey before they came to us. Things that should have been addressed in their childhood. Physical trauma, sexual trauma, intergenerational trauma, cultural trauma, spiritual trauma. And so...

It was very clear that these were human experiences, like you said, it wasn't a pathology. And their symptoms to me at the time felt appropriate in the context of the families and the communities and the experiences they were coming from. And then they would meet with a psychiatrist for an hour.

you know, then assessment was done and then the diagnosis is given and then they're put on medications.

Sean (15:36.482)
On this podcast, we don't call psychiatric drugs medications. so, cause it's something I want to, I want to change in the way that we communicated in culture because medications assume they are medicinal. And I do believe there are medicines that exist. some of those medicines are in nature, whether that's sun or water or nutritious food or love, but there are also other medicines that are like critical and life saving.

insulin for diabetes, you know, for example, antibiotics, you know, can be very medicinal because they correct an underlying abnormality or, improve a disease state or kill a bacteria. And when you start calling psychiatric drugs, medicines, you then are, we are then continuing the false idea that they are correcting something that is somehow broken.

or abnormal. And so I know medical professionals have been trained that these drugs are medicine. So as a medical professional, how were you trained about the experience of traumatic stress reactions, depressed mood, psychosis? How were you told, what was the etiology of those conditions and what are the medical interventions?

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (17:04.984)
I would say in my nursing education and even in psychiatry, there wasn't a whole lot of training around trauma. I did my own research over the years, got into Gabor Matej's work and many others who in this area focus on trauma and in order to solve my own issues, but because it was something that was appearing consistently.

in the individuals that I was dealing with. And trauma is acknowledged in some areas and there's trauma informed care, but I don't think it's fully given its due or understood. So in the system, what I was taught was more of the biomedical model as mental illness, as a disease process that's within the individual, within the brain, the

chemical imbalance, which now I understand is just a theory and a propaganda for pharmaceuticals companies, and has been perpetuated everywhere, but there's no evidence for it. And so for me, and I come from an indigenous background, you know, people who were herbalists and believed in community and connection and spirituality, all the things that you mentioned.

So it was a bit of a shift, a cultural shift of my understanding what causes illness and imbalance within a person. And so it was a complete opposite of that in this context where it's seen that the individual is separate from their family's dynamic, from their community's country and the whole world. And so...

Initially, of course, coming from the background that I came from, I trusted, you know, doctors and psychiatrists and the medical and psychiatric system because I thought, well, you know, there's in parts of the world where people think, you know, mental illness comes from evil eye or being sinful or things like that. There is a lot of stigma attached to it and people don't really understand what's going on. But then,

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (19:33.592)
to trust the medical system and the psychiatric system thinking, well, this is the state of the art system. And I thought I was going into it, trusting and believing in doctors and the medical system because I thought mostly it was good. I mean, I graduated from high school as 18 years old and then went into university. And so I thought that was...

where I was doing the best I can and also understanding mental illness from the context of the biomedical model. That was what I was taught in university and that was also what I was taught while I was working through the system, was nothing different.

Sean (20:19.97)
Nezret your story has these moments of just profound change at an early age. And then as you went to Canada and then graduated and then started working, I understand how you were taught, but was there something inside you that how you were feeling was disconnected from what you were being told? Because I would imagine that because you had experienced such profound moments of change in your life, that resilience was built over time.

But then you were experiencing others that had similar, maybe similar histories, but they were responding completely different than maybe how you were responding. Can you maybe talk a little bit about how you were feeling as you were treating those, those clients that were, were in a hospital setting.

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (21:09.048)
Absolutely. I knew from day one, just from that moment of being given the tour of the hospital, there was something completely amiss. I knew that I felt it. I couldn't articulate it in the way I am now because I can look back now and see, okay, this is what happened. And once I started interfacing with clients every single day, I was assigned four or five, six clients every day in acute care.

And I realized these people are no different than me. They have also experienced significant trauma. They've gone through very challenging things and now they're diagnosed with a mental illness and they are put on psychiatric drugs. And my main role as a psychiatric nurse was to administer medications.

and monitor the effects of those medications. Essentially, psych nurses are the ears and eyes of psychiatrists. We are in those meetings when people are diagnosed, we're there when the medication is ordered, we're the ones who interface with the pharmacy, we're the ones who literally administer the medication and clients come to us and tell us how they're reacting to the medications.

For me, I realized that I believe that people have the potential to be resilient and to move forward in their lives and to create meaning. And I also suspected that the experiences that people have had have impacted them incredibly. So it was very difficult to...

be in a situation where that was mostly discounted in terms of their life experience, where they're coming from, how what has happened has impacted them to say like, what is what happened? What happened to this person? Why did they get to this place? And the reactions that they're having is perhaps appropriate in the context of where they come from. But to actually go to a place of

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (23:30.936)
quickly deciding that there is something wrong with this person and discount their resilience and their courage and what they've endured and who they are in their core, that started to create conflict within me right away. And I did the best I could to advocate and question, which I was taught as a registered nurse to do so. I was hauled in many a times.

to the manager's office because I was questioning the treatment or the reporting that this person is not tolerating this medication, this is not helping. And so, and by the end of those four years in acute care, I completely burned out. I actually ended up taking about a six months leave.

Sean (24:21.826)
What did you observe? What were the outcomes of those interventions? So you were witnessing the widespread use of psychiatric drugs for various conditions. What did you observe?

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (24:32.984)
Yeah, so the acute care that I was working at, it was a 25 bed capacity. We had patients in various stages of psychiatric crisis and illness where, you know, anxiety, depression, OCD, schizophrenia, bipolar. We have patients with eating disorder. It was a catchall unit. And immediately what I noticed was that there was a pattern.

There would be a group of people that the medication wouldn't do anything for them, positive or negative. So they would say, doc, this is not doing anything. I might as well be taking a sugar pill. And then there would be a group of people that would have an immediate reaction to psychiatric medications. They could not tolerate it at all. Even with one dose, they would become agitated. Their anxiety would be off the roof. They would...

these increased suicidal ideation, their mood with tank, it was just, just could not tolerate it at all. And then there's a group of people that had some beneficial effects, but in the long term usually would have unwanted effects. So it was always, you know, there's the beneficial effect and it could be part of it could be placebo, part of it could be something that it's doing something.

But there's always the unwanted effects along with those medications as well, especially the longer they stay on them. And so and in those situations, what happened was no sooner did someone have a terrible reaction sometimes, and sometimes life threatening, they would be tapered off that. And at the same time, they will be titrated on another medication. It was sort of like, let's throw

the spaghetti noodle on the wall, see what sticks. And it was, I remember telling patients, yeah, it will probably take a few tries before you find something that's actually gonna be helpful without giving you horrific side effects. And even when people were considered psychiatrically stable, and this was a sad thing, they would be on a high dose of some medication and, or usually a cocktail.

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (27:00.504)
and they would feel, people would describe to me, I feel like I'm in a straight jacket.

So the quality of life of people is usually quite greatly compromised. And the pink elephant in psychiatry is that there's a huge non -compliance issue. If people benefited from these medications, why would they want to get off of them? And then the other piece that comes with it is...

I have been in many meetings with psychiatrists where they are upping the dose or changing the dose or starting initiating a new one. And that informed consent of fully people understanding what they're getting into usually is very minimized and glossed over and not informed fully what the risks are associated with this. yeah, you're going to have some GI issues. This is well tolerated. It's safe for most people.

very quick, very glossed over. And I always question if people fully understood the potential harm that comes with these medications, like permanent side effects, would they really be willing to take a chance?

Sean (28:21.826)
Nezard, I want to get into the mindset of a psychiatrist a bit. Your experience is very similar to mine. The only way I'm going to communicate it maybe a little bit differently was the perceived benefits tended to be things around maybe feeling a bit sedated or emotionally numb or detached. And in psychiatry, that was always a perceived benefit or viewed as stability. And I can understand if someone is in a acute crisis or

maybe severe emotional agitation or anxiety, that that set of effect can be perceived as therapeutic, at least for a short period of time. But that was never addressing the actual problems the person was experiencing. And just the way that drugs work is the individual is going to adapt to them. There's going to build up a degree of tolerance and it's not going to have the same effect. And then you're just on this cycle of more drugs, more drugs, more drugs, just to...

Kind of.

Sean (29:23.618)
almost ghost walk your way through life. And you see sometimes, you know, if you ever look at somebody who is on all these drugs, sometimes there's this like blank stare in their eyes, like they've lost all the light or life inside of them. And that was viewed as stability. That was viewed as a positive psychiatric response. But most people that I worked with didn't get something like that. They either, they either worsened or they just didn't feel well at all or nothing really changed in them. And then you see those non -compliance issues.

Where I've always struggled is how does the prescribing psychiatrist delude themselves into believing that this is medicinal, that this is helpful, that what they're doing is really working. Because we've all seen what is actually happening. What's going on within the brainwashing that leads them to come to these conclusions and continue to do this work.

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (30:16.184)
my goodness. Yeah, that's those I have asked myself those questions over the years because I've had my share of working with many psychiatrists. I worked in the adult system for 10 years and, and the adolescent and pediatric population for seven years. And that was the most challenging one. I remember I had an 18 year old client who was sleeping about 16 hours a day and was sitting at a in front of a television.

at a treatment center where they were drooling while just watching TV. And they were on a high dose of an antipsychotic. And I went to the psychiatrist and I said, this is clearly not working for this young person. Like, how would you feel if you had a child who was 18 years old sitting in front of TV at home drooling?

I said, this is not okay. This drug needs to be lowered. And I was told, absolutely not. It was always an ego trip as far as I was concerned. And I also feel psychiatrists, over time I realize they become desensitized to people's suffering when it comes to the effects of these medications, especially the adverse effects.

and almost assume that that is an expected thing that they know every medication comes with risk and that there's going to be unwanted effects. And they somehow make peace with this idea that it's okay. I had another client when I was in the adult system that was 49 years old and had lost everything because she was probably on a six or seven or eight medications. And I remember.

Benzodiazepine being the problem. She had akathisia, she was suicidal, had no focus whatsoever. And I remember questioning that with a psychiatrist and saying, she does not need to reinstate this medication. This is not helpful to her. And she has lost so much and she's on these all these different medications. I think this is actually harming her. And I was hauled into a manager's office for that because I was questioning.

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (32:37.272)
the authority of a psychiatrist. And to me, yeah, go ahead.

Sean (32:40.29)
That's the problem. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Your role as a nurse psychiatrist is to monitor the reactions to the drugs. And when you're reporting that those reactions are not beneficial, why are they denying your role in that process to communicate clearly what's happening to the patients?

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (33:04.434)
absolutely. I mean, you know, you're dealing with people's lives, you're dealing with people's brains, they're coming to you, you know, as a psychiatric nurse, people share with me the intimate details of their lives, sometimes that they don't share with their own families and close people to them. It's such an incredible privilege to do the work that we do. And there is huge amount of trust and responsibility.

And so, and yes, as my job is to advocate for my clients and they're coming to me and they're saying, I have gained weight, a hundred pounds in a few months. I don't have any energy. I'm told by my psychiatrist to go exercise and eat right. I have no motivation. My, no energy. I, I'm not functioning at work or at school.

There's people experience cognitive decline, they experience increased suicidality. There are many different things that come, many different risks that come with being on medication. And we relay that message to the psychiatrist and sometimes their idea is to up the dose. But you think, well, this is, and if the patient wants to come off the medication, then this is part of their illness.

And so it's seen as a problem. You know, they're non -compliant, but it's not non -compliance. It is that they are experiencing disruption in their functioning and their mental state because of the medications that they're taking. And that view is never accepted in psychiatry. The medications are never questioned.

They'll question the client, they'll question what, you know, their character, but they will never question the medication, very rarely. And if they do question the medication, the solution is always, let's stop this one, or let's up this one, and let's start a new one. So that is seen as the end all be all, the answer to everything. Medication reviews are supposed to happen regularly.

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (35:31.128)
Deprescribing is not a practice that's in psychiatry most of the time. People are put on these medication for months and years and decades and left on it. Not even the opportunity to say, is this actually still necessary? Can we lower the dose and see how that affects the person if it improves their quality of life? Can we see if they can do without it? Can we help them implement alternatives like you were saying earlier?

all the things that could be incredibly helpful and soothing to a person.

Sean (36:08.194)
My first job out of undergrad was in a psychiatric hospital. So it was my first exposure to this. I've been open about this on other podcasts before. I distinctly remember the hierarchy that existed within that system where the psychiatrist was kind of untouchable and there were nurses and there were counselors and I was part of a treatment team. I actually got promoted quite early. So I represented the other counselors who were on the floor. I think I got.

promoted because I did ask a lot of questions. I was critical. And I was also very effective. I was very effective on a psychiatric hospital with kids aged five to 10. So one of the things that really disrupted a unit was when it was behaviorally out of control. And I was 22 years old, 23 years old, just coming out of playing college football. I was really interested into like,

behaviorism and some of the techniques that I learned during that time to help manage behavior with young kids. I've used the rest of my life and I just had a real knack of getting kids to be able to listen and to kind of follow the rules of the unit in a way to kind of connect with them and to motivate them to change. I always had control, very structured. So I did get promoted pretty quickly in that system, but what was horrible was that I was

horrifying was how the members, whether they were the nurses, the psychiatrist, the social workers, did become desensitized to the negative effects of these drugs. And when you see it with young children, it's just horrifying. Most of the kids were coming from abusive and violent backgrounds. And when I asked those questions, I saw the fear in the eyes of the staff that I was actually questioning the psychiatrist. And Sean knows my personality.

probably been doing that since I was 13 years old in various capacities. It was just something that was natural to me and I did not care. I don't have fear of the authority figure. So I'll call out the authority figure. It was just always something in my soul about that. And I saw the reactions like, my God, he's actually stating out loud what we see that's horrifying. And I saw how...

Sean (38:31.874)
Really this group of people became so marginalized. I, my perception was that they were viewed as less than human. They were experimental that their quality of life and their purpose was so poor and so low that any drug that can kind of stabilize the aggressive behaviors of the acting out improves their quality of life, regardless of the consequences. and that was very challenging and very difficult for me to, to deal with. I mean, I remember having a lot of sleepless nights as it, as a young man.

But I wouldn't be here today on this microphone without that experience. And so I do ultimately look at it as a blessing, but unfortunately that has not, that wasn't the only experience where I saw that same hierarchy, that same blind obedience to authority and the fear of questioning authority, even in the face of injustice. And that's what's always been challenging for me about the human condition was how we can turn a blind eye to injustice.

and just surrender to the medical authority. And I think that's part of the problem in Western medicine, in how we have elevated the medical profession to almost godlike status. And now we don't feel like we even had the right to question. And so many parents that I work with today feel like they have to go against their better judgment because obviously the medical authority knows much more. And...

Obviously, I just came to the conclusion that there's probably not a more dangerous medical professional than a psychiatrist, probably not a more dangerous medical professional than a child psychiatrist. And many of those same people are kind of graduating at the lowest level of their medical school training, unfortunately. They're kind of the worst of our medical professionals. And so I do see anyone who participates in that level of injustice and harm.

to be violating the ethics of their profession to first do no harm, and I see it as criminal behavior and I'm not afraid to say that. Do you believe, Nezret, that when I go to that extent, that that's an extreme viewpoint or can you understand my perspective?

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (40:47.544)
totally understand your perspective. And the reason is because I worked in pediatrics for seven years. And that was one of the most challenging experiences that I've had. I was in an emergency. So I was doing psych assessments every day. And also, you know, interviewing the parents as well as the kids and then if

I needed support. There's the emergency physician, a pediatrician usually, and then the on -call psych and a staff psychiatrist. And with children's and youth health, I realized over time that was actually the thing that led me to leave the profession is just seeing that our youth and their parents are in absolute peril. And the answer to what's happening.

with our kids, suicide being the second leading cause of death for youth between 14 and 24, besides motor vehicle accidents. Why are our kids in this situation? And the answer, I have seen kids as young as four years old on multiple ADHD medications, risperidone, which is a serious neuroleptic, and that's given for aggression.

So when you're describing to me how you were able to work with these little kids and help them to see things differently and to behave differently, that's a skill.

That is compassion. Anybody can prescribe a drug and say, you know, yeah, this person has a behavior problem and this is the way you deal with it and just discharge them. When I worked in Emerge, we also were able to cover the acute care for children. And I had a stint for about six months. And I remember I was being given a tour by my mentor.

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (42:51.864)
who ended up actually becoming my manager. But I remember him telling me a story about an 11 year old that came to the unit with on 10 different medications and his heart stopped and he had to be rushed to ICU. So how do you go to the parents and say, yeah, no, your idiot child psychiatrist put your kid on 11 different medications. And of course, parents have abdicated their responsibility these days. And yes, that blind trust of,

Sean (43:01.154)
Mm.

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (43:21.912)
authority to mental health professionals. I recently watched an interview of Abigail Shrier and Jordan Peterson on her book, Bat Therapy. And that's what they talk about, that previously, people, parents went to their extended family, to their grandparents, to their community to seek help and support if they had a child who is struggling, you know, it takes a village to raise a child.

And now people are fragmented in that there's not all the time extended family close by. People live in different places because of education and work. And so what do parents do? They bring them to emergency. They bring them to a doctor or a psychiatrist. And I've had so many times where a kid comes in, they had just been placed on an SSRI a few weeks earlier. Now they're cutting and they're suicidal.

when previously that was not a history. And it's not to say there weren't kids that were deeply struggling into substances, doing all kinds of things. But I would think we would be more discerning and cautious about putting children on psychiatric drugs on a developing brain. Nowadays, we find out that our brain doesn't even fully develop until our mid -20s. Yes, we have.

Our brain and bodies are incredibly resilient, but these substances, these drugs are tremendous in their impact on children.

Sean (44:59.874)
I'm wondering if we can transition to your personal story because having gone through those experiences, I'm curious how you yourself ended up going down the path of using like antidepressant drugs.

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (45:12.376)
Absolutely. I was 30 years old and I had just been through four years of working in acute care and having, you know, to interface with people at the height of their illness. And I believe I just burned out and I also had an undiagnosed and untreated hypothyroid condition, which typically mimics psychiatric symptoms. excuse me, just for a second.

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (45:47.864)
And so I went to a family physician and their suggestion was to start on, they did the measuring for the TSH and it was low. So they started me on a medication called Synthroid. But at the same time, they suggested I take this antidepressant, which was amitriptyline. And so I was started on both of those medications on the same day. Up to that point,

you know, I would have accepted a diagnosis of let's say, you know, PTSD, or complex trauma, which should be quite appropriate based on everything that I had gone through, or even a nursing burnout. I think, you know, I had some anxiety based on the experiences that I've had. excuse me. And,

that would have been appropriate and also taking into consideration the background. And so I figured I was so exhausted for the few months prior to being placed on these medications that I decided, okay, well, I'm in a desperate place. I need something to change. So I went on it. I believe I had a reaction to both of the medications because within about two or three weeks, I became hypomanic.

And I had never had a history of hypomania prior to that time. Maybe some anxiety, depression, but understandable in the context of what has happened. And then that I tapered, I attempted to taper off amitriptyline and I learned about antidepressant withdrawal. So I had to actually go to emergency and safely taper, which I did. And, but I still had that offending agent of Synthroid.

being on that medication. And within about six months that fall, I had my first suicidal depression. And I had never considered suicide previous to that point. It was never on my radar. It just was not a solution. You know, you're talking about resilience and sort of being, I've always been somebody who liked to live and who is grateful.

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (48:11.8)
from my life. And so it was incredibly shocking to me to now be in this place and my mood had tanked. And of course I went to, at that point I was back to work and I went back to a Balkan clinic and they said, let's try this antidepressant. And so then I was placed on,

I was trialed on Effexor and I had to get off of that within about two or three days. I was incredibly activated and anxious. I was having panic attacks. I had never experienced that. And then I also was trialed on ES -Cytalopram for about 10 days and I was starting to hallucinate on day eight or nine. And a couple of other antidepressants, but the interesting thing is I was pregnant with my daughter when I was 23.

And I was throwing up all the time. So somebody said, why don't you try gravel? And I had never been somebody who just takes medications. That was never like how we grew up. So I, prior to that, I had never been on any medication. So I tried 25 milligram of gravel, which is a lowest dose. And I was in on the couch for about three days. So you can only imagine the sensitivity that I had to medications and then.

being placed on psychiatric medications. And eventually I settled on a medication called Mirtazapine, which made me gain 20 pounds, continued the hypomania and depression every fall and winter. And at that point, I couldn't get off of Mirtazapine even if I wanted to. I attempted several times. And in 2014, I had a psychotic break.

And I was told that my antidepressants had caused the hypomania and a bipolar type illness. And so we want to add mood stabilizers.

Sean (50:18.754)
Can I, can I intervene there? Were you actually told that it was anti -depressant induced bipolar or were you told that by going on an anti -depressant, it revealed an underlying bipolar disorder?

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (50:20.088)
Mm -hmm.

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (50:30.36)
correct. I was told the psychiatrist diagnosed me with antidepressant induced bipolar disorder, but they also mentioned that they think I had an underlying issue and that's why the medication actually causes that, which I never bought that. I never believed it because I've done research and

Sean (50:45.762)
Yeah.

This is the pseudo scientific nonsense that continues to get repeated and it blows my mind. And originally started pushed by the drug companies when so many people were trying antidepressants and became manic is they, this is just what they do is they say, that's an underlying bipolar disorder. And now we can put you on another medication. And we still see this nonsense discussed today. Even highly respected psychiatrists have said it on our show and I've had to correct them. So you have these very known.

adverse drug reactions and the psychiatrists are interpreting it as mental illness.

It's absolute insanity.

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (51:29.016)
Yeah, I resisted that diagnosis. I never bought into it because I knew that things changed dramatically. My mental health had significantly deteriorated after being started on psychiatric medications. But this was also an experience that I witnessed in my clients for many years prior. I was absolutely terrified to get on mood stabilizers and antipsychotics because I knew.

Sean (51:50.794)
Mm -hmm.

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (51:58.296)
what those medications were capable of doing.

Sean (52:01.57)
Did you feel you were in a position to advocate for yourself?

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (52:07.)
I did the best I could. But at that point, I was sort of caught in this place of being desperate because I had my daughter, I was in a relationship, I was working full time. And I think once I got on the medications, it's like this is something I witnessed with people too, it's like you go in this merry round that where you can't go off of the medication because you're

body is used to it. And often people are told in the same breath that they're told these are powerful medications that's going to change your brain chemistry, that you won't form dependency on them. And that is not true at all. Because I attempted to get off of Mirtazapine for several times. And I would go to a place where I was an absolute mess, insomnia, suicidal ideation. And that was the most disturbing part.

And I was just keeping myself above, you know, my head above water. And that suicidal ideation intensified weight gain, brain fog, everything else. And I could not get off of it, even if I wanted to. And I tried several times. And the worst part was that I was placed on an antidepressant when my daughter was eight years old. And for those subsequent...

13 years that I was on those medications, I felt like I became an absent mother. And there was incredible amount of guilt and shame. And that also had a huge consequence on her mental health. And I'm not privy to get into those details, but that was the worst part of it.

Sean (53:54.402)
Yeah. I mean, and that's the challenge here in our system is that people will go on the treatment for depression and the treatment itself will cause more problems than the original depressed mood or stressful experience. And it exacerbates kind of the problems and it kind of leads into this feedback loop where the individual becomes more guilty, more shameful, more disconnected from everything that's important in their life. And it's just attributed to the original illness.

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (53:55.896)
Thank you.

Sean (54:21.506)
And that's the shameful aspect of all of this. But that's right. I know probably a lot of our listeners right now are going to have this question pop into their mind. Given what you were exposed to in the psychiatric system as a nurse, why would you then accept those treatments seeing so many people harmed yourself?

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (54:43.448)
At that point, I would say, you know, four years into acute care, to some extent, I had bought into this idea that perhaps what I was learning as this biomedical model, maybe I am sick, maybe based on everything that I've gone through, I do, I did develop something. And I also have bought into this Western medicine psychiatry is idea of, yeah, medications can help. I think I was naive. And I also.

was in complete burnout and exhausted. And I had never felt this experience of being, you know, having high with thyroid condition where I felt like I couldn't function. So I was at that place and I did, I thought, you know, I was a psych nurse and I was a medical professional and there's research and I kind of bought into the whole narrative of, and then I thought, maybe I do have depression.

Maybe I do have, I know I have some anxiety and maybe the medications will help. But once I got started on it, it just was not easy to come to just separate myself from it because there was serious consequences associated going into withdrawal or coming off. And, and it's not that until that time when I really started to do my independent research and to

really question what's actually happening here because I was in the same boat as my clients. I didn't really have much to offer them. They were suffering and so was I.

Sean (56:24.098)
I think a lot of people were in similar position that the exposure to the cultural narrative is so easily internalized that you start to question yourself if you are questioning it at all. Right. There's gotta be things that, I don't know. So I just kind of will accept, what's being told by to me by the authority. Like there, there must be drugs that work. There must be an underlying science that informs the development of this mental illness.

And then the, like the internal examination of what you're experiencing. my goodness. What if everything I've gone through has led me to feel this way? And then there is, there is a treatment that can ease my suffering and make it all better for me. And that's the challenges of, of kind of being in the illusion, the illusion of that's created. Well, you're extremely vulnerable in those situations when you're struggling or you're in distress and, and, and you.

don't know when you're going to feel better. And it's just the uncertainty of it. That vulnerable state allows you to be put in a position where you make decisions where you probably in your gut know it's not the right thing for you, but you just want to be hopeful. It's so easy to create mental illness. Yeah, it is. Because they're normal.

There's normal experiences that happen, especially with Nezret's situation where she had a thyroid issue. Like that is very, very common. And to be put on two drugs at the same time, you're canceling out. You don't, it, to me, it felt like do the thyroid drug first, medication first, and see how you feel. You know, you do things in steps. Yeah. It's unbelievable how.

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (57:54.424)
in.

Sean (58:18.146)
It's not an empirical process. Like adding in an antidepressant to that Synthroid is such a profound medical error. It's such a profound violation of kind of evidence -based medicine, but that is typical. They so haphazardly will prescribe these drugs as if they have no consequences. Let's face it, we don't go through clinical trials where we're combining an antidepressant and Synthroid. You know, so it's like this acceptance of this mass experimentation on the human body and brain.

And that's where I feel like this is kind of like a dehumanization movement. Like what has happened to our ability to have a shared empathy and caring for the person that we're serving? It just feels like there's been a profound disconnect in the medical and mental health system.

I think it's the removal of those interactions. And I think about Nazareth's experience being a, a psych nurse. She was the one doing the dirty work and then reporting up to the hierarchy who were rejected, rejecting her, her outcomes or what she was seeing and how she was communicating it. So there's, there's that wall that I think is put up that removes them from those direct situations where they're.

They're getting to know their clients. They're getting to know those patients on a more intimate level. I do think that there has been kind of a diffusion of responsibility. Yeah. Right. Where ultimately, yeah, the treating physician certainly does hold that, that ethical duty to do no harm and is responsible for the care of the patient. But what happens if they don't follow the evidence -based guidelines, right?

that then it's a diffusion of responsibility that goes higher up the chain to a medical authority, to a medical association that develops the best available evidence guidelines that are supposedly based on the best available research that exists. And then if you violate that, then you write your licenses at risk. So then are you truly accountable and responsible to the person? Or are you truly accountable only to the authority?

Sean (01:00:37.314)
the American Medical Association, the American Pediatric Association, the American Psychiatric Association, or whatever model organization is influencing those guidelines in your country or your province or your state. You know, and that's the loss of independent practice. In fact, it's just about training drones who have to blindly

respond to what those guidelines are. It's the loss of the independent thinker. It's the loss of critical analysis. And their livelihoods depend on it. So they can't act outside the boundaries. Because if they do, they could lose their job. And if they lose their job, they're in a difficult spot. And that's why it's so hard to push this movement and to change the system. Because so many people are dependent upon it.

But the truth of the matter is, is active resistance is the only course. I think active resistance is if we pull ourselves out of the system, the system does not exist, right? Companies don't exist, the medical world doesn't exist, pushing their products that harm people if there's no longer a market for it, right? If you're gonna push toxic food and we keep buying toxic food, well, you're gonna still continue to see the mass.

brainwashing through advertising on what is food, what is not food, what is healthy, what is not healthy and so forth. But if we all wake up and we pull ourselves out of a system that harms us, the allopathic medical system, the psychiatric system, big food, big pharma, we have the power ourselves to take down those industries and to remake a system that serves our collective humanity, serves our wellbeing.

our health. That's why I think these conversations are so important. That's why I think the Conscious Clinician Collective is so important, because it has to be an organized way of getting together and uniting against this. And I want to transition the final part of this conversation to Nezarete's recovery, her awakening, and not what she's doing. Because there's a lot, you know, there's a lot of information, there's a lot of science, there's a lot of good people doing a lot of work. That's kind of suppressed from the mainstream.

Sean (01:02:55.842)
And unless you get them on a podcast, you're not really going to see it in the New York Times, Washington Post, CNN, NBC, or the corporate media in general, Google searches. It's all suppressed information. So it's what keeps people in the matrix. So Nezret, how were you able to kind of recover from this? And then let's transition into how you're supporting people now.

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (01:03:19.288)
Absolutely. I want to go back and make a comment about what you said about accountability. I was in a situation actually where I went up the chain to report a situation, a safety situation that involved a minor or just turned an adult. In my sort of book is still a child and

I was absolutely penalized for that. And there was a complaint against me towards my college. And I went through that debacle because I spoke up and questioned manager, treating psychiatrists, psychologists, almost the whole organization went to the ethics committee just through the entire process. And that was part of the reason why I just decided it was not worth it because.

It felt like advocating for your patients and questioning the traditional system. You're labeled as, you know, that troublemaker and there is no accountability. Psychiatrists, like you said, are the untouchables and everyone else caters to what it is that they want. And if something happens to someone, whether that is a youth that commits suicide because they were placed in the wrong medication.

or an adult or that was put on a cocktail and left for years and years that loses pretty much everything in their lives. It doesn't mean anything. And so you're on your own while you're navigating the system. And I feel like our youth and their parents are in absolute peril, especially. But that providing

you know, a safe, competent, compassionate service, which is what I've been taught. That is my code of ethics as a nurse. When that's not being followed over the years, it created such a cognitive dissonance and moral dilemma and ethical conflict that just kept growing and growing. And the more I learned and did my own research and the more I was trying to find ways to help myself and help my clients.

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (01:05:45.976)
it just became so untenable to remain in the system and to do the work that I was meant to do in a way that was actually going to be helpful to people and provide them a lasting solution. And so it was a fight for my own life that led me towards a different path. And it was a holistic approach and a comprehensive approach. One of the first things that I did,

was get off of birth control pill. Then I gave up shift work, reset my sleep. And then I also started walking everywhere five to 10 kilometers a day. I implemented intermittent fasting, the ketogenic diet. I had an incredibly supportive partner. And you know, my daughter, who is a motivating factor for me,

And I've always felt privileged to serve people, but I felt in a way I didn't have much to offer them because I was in the same boat as they were struggling. And so when I came across this community of, you know, metabolic therapies and the ketogenic diet, which, excuse me, which there is quite a bit of research on the ketogenic diet for as a.

treatment for epilepsy, which shares very similar drugs that are to treat epilepsy are used also for bipolar disorder. And then I was able to do a medically supervised taper. At the end, it was a seven year journey. It's not anything that was overnight. And I had to go through a compound pharmacy to come off of Mirtazapine very, very slowly. And so, and I must give

credit to where it belongs. I took a training with Dr. Georgia Ede, who's a Harvard trained psychiatrist, also read Dr. Christopher Palmer's book, Brain Energy, and kind of went in that holistic comprehensive approach kind of path and realized, you know, I'm glad that I went through the experiences that I went through professionally, as well as personally because

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (01:08:13.976)
it has prepared me to do the work that I do now, which is supporting people to navigate through the mental health system without losing their mind, but also helping them see that there is alternatives. There are things that they can do to take control and to be empowered and to do what is right for them and their body. And also that they can look at themselves in the context of their family, their community, and all the other forces that act.

on their mental health and the state of their state of overall health. And then also if they are interested in tapering off of those medications to advocate for with their care team to for that to be done in an appropriate way that they are supported to go through that process. And so I feel really incredibly privileged to be where I am today. And there's been some sacrifices and

a lot of challenging experiences that I've gone through, but I have a different perspective now and I feel like I can speak up and share my experiences and validate where people are at, but also have the appropriate tools to provide solutions, which I felt like over the years, I didn't have that. I couldn't help myself and I couldn't help my clients, not in a meaningful,

and helpful and lasting way. And people deserve that. People have solutions that preserve their dignity, their humanity, that provide for them something that is going to help them feel better and have hope and be able to move forward.

Sean (01:10:07.362)
Well said. What type of work are you doing right now in particular and where can people find you?

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (01:10:14.968)
Yeah, so I basically advocate for people. I work in the capacity of coaching and consulting. And many people come to me that are really struggling with their mental health, and they have been diagnosed with a mental disorder, whether that's anxiety or depression or bipolar schizophrenia. Excuse me, I work with both children and adults.

because I've had experience in both areas. And I also support parents who are going through this process with their kids. And there's a lot of education that has to be done, like you said, because people have bought into that narrative of what it means to have a mental illness, or they are told that this diagnosis is for life and they have to be on these medications. And my view,

has changed a lot of what people experience is an appropriate response to really distressing and challenging life experiences. And so, and that their experience of distress could be temporary and episodic and something that can be approached from many different angles to help them move forward. Now,

I am not 100 % against medications. I feel sometimes in really acute situations, they can be helpful in the short term and during a stabilization period, but that is a temporary measure. It shouldn't be something that people are left on for months and years and decades. And by that time, when people come to a serious acute crisis where they're not sleeping for days or they're completely not functioning, it could be helpful.

temporarily and it could help that person. But the problem for me is when people are told, no, this is what you have and you have to take these medications for years and your condition is terminal and incurable. And essentially there's no hope for you. And to me that is, I remember going through experiences where people were being handed out their diagnosis the first time, especially youth. And it's incredibly devastating. And even for adults to think,

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (01:12:39.224)
Now they have to contend with this life, almost like being in prison of like, okay, I have this disease now and it's forever and I have to take these medications who give me terrible side effects. And it's such just feels like a very hopeless situation. And in that context, that is when people think, you know what, it's not worth it. I don't want to live this way. And so they consider suicide logically. Why would you want to live with unrelenting pain?

and there's no way out. You put a human being in that situation, that's not a fair place to be.

Sean (01:13:24.258)
I agree with a lot of what you said, especially the very astute comment that we are turning episodic conditions, episodic moments in a person's life in response to adverse events, and we are turning them into chronic illness, chronic conditions. And yes, is there a place for the judicious use of a drug in an emergency situation? Yes, for a very small minority of people, but in acute

crisis situation, the drugs can and do induce a chemical response, a change that can be needed in that short period of time, but that's not how they're marketed. That is not how they're being utilized. They're creating mass harm. We're in a system that is harming many, destroying their health. And I'm so grateful for having to meet you.

Neseret, you're also one of the first people to sign up for the Conscious Clinician Collective as we have just recently released the fundraising efforts for that. We do appreciate your willingness to join the collective. And that's the purpose of this is to have a community where people can access information from conscious and ethical moral individuals like Neseret who have to kind of speak out against harm.

and speak truth and it comes from the place of love and compassion. And I think that's stronger than some of the evils that we're seeing in the systems. I honestly do believe we can make change, but it's going to take one conversation at a time, one person at a time, a consistent message. There's a lot to have to overcome when there's so much money that's being funneled into driving us to sickness and dependence.

And so I appreciate your courage, Neseret, and your willingness. Last thing here is I want to make sure that we promote your website or any social media that you're on so people can get exposed to your work.

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (01:15:27.768)
Sure, absolutely. I'm on YouTube, Neseret Bemient is my channel. And then I'm also on X, Journey of Hope for You. And those are the kind of two main social media platforms that I use. And that would be probably the best way to connect with me. Yeah, absolutely.

Sean (01:15:56.066)
Neseret, we want to thank you for a radically genuine conversation.

Neseret Bemient, RN, BscN (01:16:03.)
Thank you so much.