Radically Genuine Podcast with Dr. Roger McFillin

Welcome to the Radically Genuine Podcast. I am Dr. Roger McFillin. We've posted two previous podcast episodes addressing cancer. Why? Because it is the leading cause of death worldwide. Treatment usually includes surgery, radiotherapy, and or some systemic therapy that includes chemo, hormonal treatments, or targeted biological therapies. Simply rid oneself of the offending group of cancer cells.

In 2020, 19 million people around the world received a new cancer diagnosis, and by 2050, that number is expected to reach 35 million. It's certainly questionable whether the financial investment in cancer research has led to any meaningful improvement in understanding and treating cancer. In episode 125, Dr. Jarle Breivik, a distinguished professor of medicine at the University of Oslo, renowned for his pioneering work in cancer immunotherapy.

joined the Radically Genuine podcast. His perspective was a bit dark and he tended to spout the usual medical authority proclamations around wearing sunscreen, decreasing meat consumption, decreasing salt and saturated fat consumption, supporting vaccines, et cetera, et cetera. I found most of those recommendations that really they don't really fit the scientific data as I see it and actually believe that following many of those recommendations may very well continue to make us sick.

Additionally, he believed that more people are going to get cancer because our medical technology has advanced and we're just going to live longer. Got to die of something, I suppose. Again, I didn't think that met the actual data. Life expectancy in the United States is dropping and living longer is not necessarily the measure of a good life. Those who have lost loved ones to cancer, including young people,

have witnessed the suffering experienced from exposure to these modern treatments. I attempted to venture into the world of alternative evidence. Those who have survived cancer by attempting to heal themselves in various capacities and escape the allopathic medical system in Western societies. There's a ton of anecdotal evidence, but it's near impossible to find credible research comparing various modalities outside of contemporary medicine. How can we better

Sean (02:28.533)
identify root causes? Are there alternative conceptualizations that exist? Where do people turn when they choose against the contemporary methods, many of which they felt have poisoned their body? We have heard from so many people that simply state that the cure is often worse than the disease itself. We've received some feedback from listeners to the show who directed

us to today's guests and I want to thank those listeners. We do try to read all the emails and it does open our eyes to new avenues of discussion. And for today's podcast, I want to welcome Paul Liendertz, who is the author of The Root Cause of Cancer and founder of Root Cause Institute and teaches root cause practitioner training, getting to the root cause of cancer.

and other psycho-emotionally based diseases. Before going online to teach the root cause of cancer, Paul lived with cancer patients for over a 10 year period for 30 days at a time, focused only on identifying and resolving the root cause of their cancer as a team. Paul and the clients that worked with him had a 90% success rate healing without any treatments or anything alternative. Only the root cause was the focus.

since all of his clients were either stage three or stage four cancer and had already tried everything that was available to them both traditionally and alternatively. So I wanna welcome Paul Leendertse to the Radically Genuine Podcast.

Paul Leendertse (04:14.176)
Thank you so much. Oh wow, your introduction was just full of so many important pieces of knowledge and wisdom there, facts, inspiring just to listen to your introduction. Thank you.

Sean (04:27.481)
Yes, well, let's get into it. I'm really interested in your story. So with all of my guests, I want to know what brought them to this place in their life, the calling that exists. And, uh, you know, that journey, which usually has been exposed to many different obstacles that led somebody down to a path of new innovation or new thinking. So how'd you get here, Paul?

Paul Leendertse (04:52.076)
Well, I could answer that from so many different angles. You know, one of the things that I think is one of the most foundational reasons why I got here is because I grew up on a farm, to be honest. When I grew up on a farm, I was, for example, exposed to a lot of things directly that the average person has no experience with at all. So I was seeing births.

like live births of animals coming into the world and seeing how animals just instinctively know how to do that. And I was also exposed to a lot of dirt and germs and manure from animals. And I was drinking raw milk right from cows and gathering our own eggs. And then when I went to school, it was like I stepped into a course, a very different world. That...

I had a lot of fears and explanations for things that just didn't add up to my experience as a kid on the farm. You know, like a lot of fears like, first of all, don't drink raw milk, you could die. I was like, wait a second, I've been doing that my whole life. Like, what? That doesn't make any sense to me. And then they had this different kind of milk, like this pasteurized milk, like, well, what is that? So, and then you got to wash your hands. Like, well, wait a second, I've been playing in the dirt and shoveling poop.

out of stalls from pigs and cows and gathering eggs, like just with my bare hands going into a chicken coop, pushing aside the chicken and their dirty feet. And I've not been trying to wash my hands constantly to try to be healthy. And I never got sick, I just never got sick. I was so healthy, like my health was just over the top. I used to win all kinds of...

sports, like when we would do track and field in school, long jump, high jump, like running, I would just win everything. I was a really healthy, vital little kid, you know? And so it's almost like as soon as I got to school, I was faced with this reality that started making me question everything. And so that just continued on for many years.

Paul Leendertse (07:16.152)
So fast forward, I eventually became very passionate about health and holistic health in particular, and sort of learning what's outside the system's explanations of health as well as what's just in the system. So I ended up going to university, I got a degree in kinesiology, and I learned all about the system's teachings of health, biology, chemistry, physiology.

anatomy, I looked at cadavers in university and so on. But then I also went outside the system and pursued my own education in holistic health. But combined with that, I was always just thinking for myself, really. I was just really thinking for myself. And then this point came in 2008 when someone in my family developed lung cancer. And I thought, okay, I'm gonna figure this out.

So I'm gonna help them heal, you know, and the whole family decided that. So we used a bunch of alternative, it was kind of a combination of things like medical stuff. He was getting scans and listening to advice from doctors and so on. But then we were also changing his diet, eating organic food. Back then, I really valued juicing wheatgrass and.

just doing a whole huge, huge combination of things that I was educated on, because I kind of had one foot in the science world, like because of my university degree, and I had one foot in the alternative or holistic world. And I thought for sure we would tackle this cancer. I was so confident. I've been passionate about this stuff for a long time, and I was super healthy myself at the time. Anyways, like with...

over time, over a four month period, it seemed like sometimes he made progress and then other times not. And as he continued to go downhill, despite all these things we were doing, even alternative things, he eventually had no choice really. We always have a choice, of course, but he ended up having surgery and then he ended up having radiation. And after he had radiation, he died like

Paul Leendertse (09:32.58)
really quickly, four days after his radiation treatment, he died. And everyone in my family knew that he was dying of cancer. That was clear. What we were doing was not working. Everything that I thought I knew that would work was not working. And everything that the natural past we worked with was not working. And so he did, you know, surgery and radiation and then he died. So that didn't work, obviously.

It was very clear to my family that the radiation killed him. He didn't die of his cancer, but it was also clear to me, as I've said, that he was going to die of cancer. That was obvious. So this was a devastating experience. He died, I watched him die right in front of me. It was a pretty powerful experience. I literally felt the energy leave his body. It felt to me like I could really sense his soul coming out of his body.

Then I started looking into spiritual stuff, like the soul, like what happens when we die. And as I reflected on things, trying to figure out like what went wrong, I really, I just began questioning what is cancer itself? Is the theory about what cancer is correct? Like I mean, the mainstream accepted theory that almost anyone could repeat, you know, is cancer is a cell gone wrong?

You know, it's a rogue cell. It's a genetic error. It's growing out of control. And here's where the war on cancer emerges, right? Which is a hundred years old. We got to destroy that cell somehow. So the scientific community or the traditional approach is destroy the cell with some sort of like immunotherapy, some sort of chemical, some sort of weapon, like shall we say. And then the alternative community is no, no. We got to strengthen our immune system.

so that our immune system can destroy the cell. And I questioned that actually. I just started to ask, because I did that, we did that. We did a combination of both things and it didn't work. So I just started questioning everything. And actually four months apart from that experience, someone else very close to me died of cancer. And that was a lung cancer as well, but a different kind of cancer. So...

Paul Leendertse (11:58.556)
And they did a similar thing. So.

That's really what made me start striving for understanding the root cause. Like what caused this? Like what really caused this? And, and what, what can we do to stop this process that a person starts to start into? And about two years later, I wrote my book because it took me about two years, just reflecting, thinking outside the box, doing my own research, however I could. And then I just came up with the theory of my own, which is that.

Stress is the cause. Stress is the cause of cancer. Because when we detoxified his body, when we changed his diet, when we did fasting, when we did all these things, and when we tried to destroy the cancer, none of that worked. And then when I was reflecting, I knew what events occurred in my family member's life, which were very challenging, psycho-emotionally. Someone close to him had died. It was his ex-wife had died.

And then he developed lung cancer. And he developed lung cancer about three months later. So I was like, well, that's interesting. That's an interesting event to have occurred. And my family member never cried in the whole 15 years that I knew him. I never saw him have any emotions like that. So I just started putting things together and I created my theory that stress is the cause of cancer and I just kind of dove into it on my own. And...

I started doing research, I ended up finding out that cancer cells aren't actually just a random cell that's mutating. They actually have specific characteristics. For example, cancer cells absorb way more glucose than any other cell in the body. That's not random. Why is it that whenever this mutation occurs, it always has a certain characteristic? So...

Paul Leendertse (14:02.508)
Long story short, my book ended up reaching people, some people were reading it, and they were compelled to contact me, some of them. They had cancer and they said, now that you're saying stress could be the cause, I gotta say I had a lot of stress before I was diagnosed with cancer. There was a lot of stress in my life. And how many people today don't have a lot of stress in their life? Life has become stressful for the average person. I mean, life isn't so easy.

Um, they were people that had tried everything else too. And somehow they got ahold of my book. And then they said astonishing things to me that I think matter so much. They said, no one has asked me about the stress in my life since my diagnosis. No one. So this was back in 2012 when I had my first client, they said to me, you know, I've, I've talked to people about like, you know, specialize in certain diets. I've talked to people about certain treatments.

It's all just the focus on destroying the cancer, but no one's asked what was the stress in my life. So I said, well, why don't you come over to my place and we'll sit down and start talking about this. So I start looking into it with them. And then as they begin talking about what's really gone on in their life, and they would share with me stuff that they had not even talked about to some of their family members, they would start crying.

they would start crying, they'd have emotional releases. We'd start getting into like the emotional aspects of stress and what stress does to us emotionally. And this just launched. Now that first person that came to me, she had stage four cancer metastasized to her spine, multiple tumors on her spine. She had done surgeries, she had done radiation, she had done chemotherapy, she had worked with all kinds of alternative practitioners. She had done everything in the books, just like.

similar to what I went through with my family member. And now she was told nothing can be done. So she was told she would be dead in two months and within a month approximately she'd lose the ability to walk and be in a wheelchair because of the tumors on her spine. That woman is alive today.

Paul Leendertse (16:14.536)
And all I did with her is talk to her about the stress in her life. Like what the heck happened? Now there's some more complexity to this though without getting into personal details because this is always needs to be confidential too because when you start talking about stress in people's lives it becomes private really quickly too. Sensitive matters, you know, it's emotional. But she had a relationship

Sean (16:18.935)
Hmm.

Paul Leendertse (16:44.46)
at the time that was like very abusive. So in her case, it was like she was very involved in a lot of abuse. And that purse, that man went to jail. So he went to jail and she started to talk to me about the issue. So two things happened. The root of the problem, the root cause of her cancer was addressed with regards to that man going to jail. So now she's finally safe and out of that relationship.

And second, she began processing the stress psycho-emotionally by speaking with me. And at that time I had taken some emotional healing certifications, because I was very deep into holistic health. Like at that point already, well, I guess that was two years after my stepfather died and I had started looking into spiritual emotional things. So I was...

deeply passionate about that subject and had taken some training already to try to understand our emotions. And she healed, she healed. And within one month, she had gained like 15 pounds of her weight back. She was skeletal when she came to me. And like I said, now eventually her cancer just all disappeared. So that, you know, launched me very passionately. Like it made me commit my life essentially

root cause of cancer. That's what really happened. Like now I'm on to something that matters. Now what's wild is that even though she healed, not a lot of people seem to pay attention. So they're like, most people just didn't believe it. I didn't have any proof. I didn't like have a video like recording of what happened. There's no logical explanation. And so I was kind of thinking like

jump all over this, but that's not what actually happened. And once you get into the world of cancer, it gets really complicated because there's so much stuff out there that's all about money. It's a huge billion dollar industry. Like let's, you know, there's all these cures, either scientific or, you know, like mainstream or alternative that is gonna solve the problem.

Paul Leendertse (19:06.324)
And it's a super sensitive topic. It's very emotional. There's a lot of pain involved with it. So it's not the kind of topic that's easy to get to mainstream, to get, to understand what's really going on.

Sean (19:20.645)
Paul, this isn't the first time we've had this conversation. We had Danny Carroll on our podcast who was referring to Germanic healing practices. But essentially he was talking about something very similar to what you were saying, that there is a social emotional component to this and there is a function that exists that the cancer serves some function, some protective function, maybe specific biological function. Right.

Paul Leendertse (19:50.148)
I used to think that. I used to think that. So I have some things to correct with German New Medicine. But please continue. But I got to point that out right now. It's important.

Sean (19:50.253)
That every... Okay.

Sean (20:00.665)
Okay, yeah, we'll get into that because we want to ask those questions. In his in his perspective, and he was working with people with stage four cancer, and he published a book Terminal Cancer is a misdiagnosis. Yes. And he was believe that there was a psychological conflict that needed to be resolved in order for, I guess their body to function optimally. So the way that I'm kind of thinking about it is more around holistic medicines, is that

Disease is our body's kind of response when we're not at ease. And there could be multiple causes to that. It certainly could be exposure to carcinogens or toxicity in our environment. It could be related to the type of foods that we're putting into our body, but it also could be related to mental stress because when our body is not at ease, our body is sick and symptoms are representations of our body not being at.

ease. And of course, we live in a toxic and stressful society. So it makes sense to me that the body is trying to survive in some manner. And the symptoms that we experience are represented, are representing the body's attempts to try to reach some form of homeostasis. So I sometimes have a hard time just when someone comes on the podcast and says, well, here is the absolute cause. Like this is the reason, you know, it could be this.

Paul Leendertse (21:18.252)
Absolutely.

Paul Leendertse (21:26.385)
Mm-hmm.

Sean (21:28.017)
that seems oversimplified to me and that there are potentially multiple avenues for healing that include this. But I do want to get your thoughts on Germanic healing practices and the idea that there is some root cause that is a psychological conflict that has to be resolved.

Paul Leendertse (21:48.772)
Yeah, wonderful. I, about two years ago, someone sent me a message saying, wow, your work sounds a lot like Dr. Hammers of Germany Medicine. And it definitely does sound very similar. And there are some important similarities. And so I started to look into that and I was really excited as I began to read. And I thought, I have to meet this man. I got to talk about, I got to talk with him, you know? But.

As I continued further into the research, a lot of things I started to discover are inaccurate based on what I've experienced. So the first thing I would just want to point out is that I think German in medicine is a really important step in the awakening process of what causes disease. And it's one of the most important steps is to just make the leap a little deeper from the physical.

into the mental emotional world and how our mind and emotions actually can affect our physiology and absolutely does affect our physiology. And I think there's a lot of science that even proves that today. I mean, just and without getting into the science, but if we just use our own mind, thinking about how if we're embarrassed, we might blush. Well, there's an emotion that's causing a change in blood flow in our cheeks, you know, and it's changing our skin.

But I think a lot of science has probably proven that when people are scared, like really startled and frightened, you can literally pee your pants or poop your pants. That's why these things come around, like scared the shit out of me. Our physiology is, think about our heart rate. If somebody cuts you off in traffic and you're suddenly surprised and you have a near death situation.

Most people have probably experienced like trembling legs where it's like you're shaking afterwards and your heart rate's gone through the roof and perhaps you'd even have an emotional release, you know, like you cry afterwards. Like, so obviously our psychology and what's happening to us in our mental emotional reality is affecting our physiology. You know, tears can be shed because of our emotions. There's a physiological result.

Paul Leendertse (24:03.736)
So this is what lines up with me with Germany Medicine. And I think it's, and this is what I discovered over these 10 years, that every single time a person has cancer, there's some stress that's gone on in their life. Now from here, almost everything diverges with myself and what I teach and what I've discovered versus Germany Medicine's explanations. So for example, Dr. Hamer believed as a general statement that

Shock is what causes cancer and first of all, that's not actually necessarily true It can be a shock, but it can be just a gradual Experience of stress in our life. That is the source of stress not some huge event that shocks us The other thing is that cancer So I'm just gonna share what I think here obviously I really strongly believe this but

And I think that as humanity listens and learns about this, it's gonna come to the surface more and more. But essentially what happens is when we experience emotional stress, chronically, one of the way, that's very stressful for us, first of all. It actually harms our physiology. Like the more stressed we are, it begins to harm our physiology. The harm accumulates. And one of the coping mechanisms of a human being is to suppress our psycho-emotional stress.

So we can be upset at someone and not tell them, suppress it, for many, many potential reasons. We can lose someone, someone could die, there would be a shock experience. And now we have emotional pain related to grief. And not want to talk about it anymore and just want to get on with life because it's so painful to even talk about it. So we can suppress that. So this suppression is what causes cancer. So it's not a shock that causes cancer. That...

can occur, but like I said, it can just be chronic stress in our life that leads to the suppression. And what Dr. Hamer theorized is that cancer is a biological response. So now that this stress has occurred, our body knows exactly what it's doing and it's creating cancer as a response and there's different stages and there's healing phases involved and so on. But if you work with cancer people...

Paul Leendertse (26:25.508)
patients directly, like I have for so many years, you'll quickly find out that if somebody goes through an experience and then they develop cancer as a result, and what's going on inside them psycho-emotionally is not resolved, the cancer will destroy them. They will die. The cancer will continue to grow and spread until it literally, and what happens, what cancer does to a person, which is really awful, but it's just better to understand this.

is that it consumes a person from the inside out. It absorbs glucose from the blood constantly. And as time goes on, we can get to the point, especially if the root cause isn't being addressed or resolved, especially if the matter is escalating, then the amount of glucose it consumes will increase and increase, and it will literally waste a person away from the inside out to the point where they lose weight, they lose muscle mass.

they become skeletal and they die. This is not the wisdom of the body like German medicine believes. This is actually, there's something very different going on. But one of the benefits of German medicine, and I have a lot of respect for, for all German medicine practitioners, I have ton of respect for this because they're thinking outside the box, they're...

following a new belief system that is way more empowering to people and is way more valuable to help someone take control of their life potentially and actually heal. So I just, you know, it's like I just don't want to come across like I don't respect these beliefs, but and that there's no value in them. But the truth is what we really need to understand and I believe that there's a difference. You know, I believe that that's not what's actually happening. So what's

And how the body works is that it's not also so simple as what German medicine oftentimes describes. Like there's a lot of different practitioners out there teaching aspects of German medicine, but a common thing that I hear is that when you have symptoms in the body, this is the body's wisdom, this is how we heal. It's not quite that simple. When we have symptoms in the body, the symptoms are developing in response to some kind of a damaging factor that has occurred in our life.

Paul Leendertse (28:47.488)
If that damaging and our main, the main way the body heals is through some form of inflammatory response. And the purpose of inflammation is to bring blood flow to the area that's been compromised or damaged. And it's to bring nutrition, it's to bring immune cells, it's to bring, and it's also to remove waste from the area, waste products, damaged cells and repair them and put new ones there, you know. So inflammation has a purpose.

So our body does know what it's doing. It is very wise. It's creating the inflammation. It has to. We got to address the problem. Now the thing is if the factor that damaged our body or our psycho-emotional wellbeing is still present in our life, the body will not complete the healing because what's happening is it's continuously being damaged and it cannot actually resolve the issue because the damage is ever present. And so this is where it gets really dangerous

these beliefs are not really, if we believe these things, without a full understanding. Because I've heard a lot of people tell me that they have been told by German new medicine practitioners, don't worry about your cancer, you're gonna go through healing phases, everything's gonna be okay, your body will just heal. It's in a healing response. It's not in a healing response. Cancer is not a biological response.

And I'll explain what it is, too, if we have time. I would be happy to explain what I think it actually is.

In fact, what it is, is it's a psycho-emotional response. It's not a biological response. And, um, the body is not in any kind of a healing phase. There are no healing phases in cancer. What's essentially happening, happening is the body has become constricted because of our psycho-emotional pain or stress that's become suppressed and that constriction

which I can explain much deeper, but I'm just gonna kind of give a quick overview here because it's a little more complicated than this, but that restriction or suppression creates a problem in our physiology. And because there's a compromised area of our body because of that problem, that begins to cut off the life force to that area of the body. And because of that, there's less nutrition reaching a specific spot in our body.

and there's less capacity for a body to heal that area. And so that area begins to actually die. So now inflammation may occur because that's what the body always does to try to heal an area. So the body will become inflamed, for example, around a tumor, but it cannot heal that spot. It cannot complete the healing because the suppression is the cause of the constriction. And because there's a constriction, the body can't do what it would normally do.

So what's actually happening is a person is in a death process. That's really what's happening. They can heal. Yes, like what Danny Carroll, it sounds like he said, is that terminal cancer is a misdiagnosis, sort of, because no, no cancer is terminal, not necessarily. That's a false belief, because we can heal ourselves. We can reverse this process. But it's not.

a false diagnosis using the mentality that the body's in a healing response. It's not in a healing response. It's trying to heal itself, but can't. And that's why a person will die of cancer if they don't resolve the root cause. So my work in Dr. Hammers diverges significantly. And I think because I followed a different path and a different theory,

Paul Leendertse (02:23.865)
that also led me to discovering more accuracy with regards to what's actually causing cancer. So for example, the cause of lung cancer, I will say here with 100% confidence, because I know that it's the truth because of observation, and because I teach this, my students, they go out into the world and they try to see, is this right, what Paul's saying? And then they discover like, oh my God, it is actually true every time. So I would just share this right now. So anyone can just.

Don't just believe me, you can just go and find this out for yourself if you have the opportunities to observe. The cause of lung cancer is unresolved grief. So the type of psycho-emotional stress that we experience affects different parts of our body too because of how our brain and our nervous system interacts with different regions of our body. Like I was saying in the beginning, if someone's nervous, they will blush, let's say, and you'll see like a change of color on the face.

but it's not a change of color on the feet, or a change of color around the belly button or something, like blushing. So there's a specific kind of connection that goes on between our brain and our body. And our brain is where we, is the region, let's say, where we do our thinking, and the body is where we do our feeling. So we actually feel in the body.

Sean (03:43.784)
So what's, what, what is the connection of the lungs and grief?

Paul Leendertse (03:51.257)
Well, that's the connection. So if we experience grieving pain, it will constrict our lungs. It will affect the physiology around our lungs and in our lungs. And if we suppress grief because we don't have the tools or the knowledge or the awareness of how to deal with that tremendous pain, because if someone dies that you love, it's like one of the hardest things to have to deal with psycho-emotionally. And most people don't know how to deal with it.

Sean (03:55.202)
Mm-hmm.

Paul Leendertse (04:18.777)
This leads to more and more reasons why the root cause of cancer needs to be really taken seriously and understood. Because the reason, for example, that we generally, the average person, doesn't know how to actually deal with grief is because it's not even taught. It's not part of mainstream. Like when you go to school, we don't learn about grief. Like you can do 15, 20 years of school and walk out into the world having no idea and preparation on how to deal with the death of a loved one.

So when that happens, because we're a human being, we will be impacted massively psycho-emotionally and just not know what to even do with it. And that's what leads often to the suppression of the pain.

Sean (04:59.956)
What about the exposure to carcinogens, like through smoking or asbestos or toxic mold? Wouldn't that lead to lung cancer? I think we have scientific data to support it does.

Paul Leendertse (05:05.315)
Wonderful question.

Paul Leendertse (05:11.525)
There's a strong correlation. So I'll explain why that is. There's definitely correlations, but it's not the cause. And before I answer that question, I just want to finish about the lung cancer because I was explaining how there's a difference in my discoveries versus homer. So what I hear very common in the German in medicine community is that they've been taught to believe that lung cancer is caused by the fear of dying.

So a person's afraid to die. It's never the cause. I've never seen that. In 15 years of working with cancer patients, it's never the cause. In fact, many people want to die. It's the opposite. So it's close. Like Dr. Hamer got close with some of these things because there is an element of death there, right? A person's afraid to die in their theory. But that's not what's causing lung cancer. It's a death that has actually already occurred.

and they're in pain about the death and it's not resolved and that's actually the cause of lung cancer. So this is what I've just, when I started to research Germany Medicine, I bought like the most expensive textbooks I could get on the subject and I just watched like YouTube videos because I'm like, wow, this is, I wanna learn potentially more and see what's been discovered. But what I just kept running into is like, this is not what I've observed. This is not what I've seen. So.

I just want to point that out, there's a really big difference and I think it's important because if what I'm saying is actually the truth, then we need to go deeper into that in order to truly end cancer and resolve things. You can be coaching someone with lung cancer and trying to get them more comfortable with facing death and changing their belief systems about death and stuff, but it'll just be hit and miss. You'll be kind of guessing because that's not the issue that's actually caused their cancer.

Paul Leendertse (07:06.345)
What's happened in the world today is that first of all half of humanity roughly statistically is developing cancer. So one in two people. Now the other half is not healthy necessarily. So the other half is experiencing all the symptoms associated with varying types of inflammatory processes.

like a migraine, it's related to inflammation, low back pain related to inflammation, and aches and pains and skin breakouts and everything else that you can imagine is basically, it's all related to inflammation. The difference with cancer is that the inflammatory process is trying to surround the tumor, but it can't actually resolve the problem. And just like with the other inflammatory, and the tumor's there because of a suppression.

Whereas the other one and two people that are experiencing symptoms in their body, that's occurring because of exposure to toxins, because of malnutrition, because of not sleeping for weeks on end, because of a parasite infection which wakes you up at night, and all these other things. So there's all kinds of reasons why inflammation can occur in the body. But generally, if we address that lifestyle factor.

then the inflammation will cease because it will be able to complete its healing process because the insult has been resolved. But so most of the other types of symptoms are occurring from a variety of factors which are physical like toxins, but also psycho-emotional. So this still affects our physical body. Psycho-emotional things, stresses, still cause all kinds of other symptoms of body too. But with cancer, it's a suppression.

of the stress. So that is the cause of cancer. So now what happens is because humanity is in such dire straits, really, to be honest, I mean, if one or two people are developing cancer, it means humanity has a pretty significant problem, right? And what's happening is we have learned as a species how to cope with challenges in our life. So the human race has a ton of coping strategies. And one of the primary ones, psycho-emotionally,

Paul Leendertse (09:24.725)
is to suppress, not talk about it, not feel it anymore, disconnect from it. This is an instinctual almost way of surviving. But then there's other things. If we're not happy, which is a form of stress, psychomotively, then we can drink alcohol. If we're tired, we feel tired, then we can drink like a big huge coffee. If we're depressed, we could go get drugs from the pharmaceutical companies to suppress.

our depression, right, to disconnect us from our feelings. Now with grief, what I ended up discovering is that if we have unresolved grief, we can smoke a cigarette because nicotine helps soothe the lungs, helps open them up a little more, helps relax things and reduce the constriction we have in the lungs related to this suppressed emotion of grief. But what

Paul Leendertse (10:24.665)
And even overeating can be an emotionally driven thing, a psycho-emotionally driven thing, because we've become so damaged emotionally. So what's actually happening in humanity is we're receiving more and with generations, we're receiving an accumulation of psycho-emotional stress and damage. And this is increasing the occurrence of cancer across the human race.

And unless the human race actually understands the real cause, it's just not really going to be taken seriously and changed. And to address this stuff, it's not easy. It is not easy. Like if you have cancer, it's kind of easy to just start juicing, you know? Or it's easy to eat like apricot kernels or something. And I wouldn't say it's easy to take chemotherapy because it can be one hell of a painful, like even tragic experience. Like chemotherapy has definitely caused deaths.

But I would say that doing chemotherapy is actually even easier than getting into the root cause work, as I call it, and getting down into our psycho-emotional reality and into our belief systems and into our fears and into our emotional pains and stuff and actually resolving it. That's actually really difficult to do. But when it's resolved, what I realized in those years living with people with cancer, and now since I've gone online, I have some testimonies accumulating as well.

Um, cancer just goes away. It actually just completely goes away because the sup, when the suppression is removed, yep.

Sean (11:55.368)
So now you're getting into my.

Yeah, now you're getting into my areas of expertise. I'm a clinical psychologist and I think one of the best ways to describe the expertise of a clinical psychologist is we are experts in coping and there are so there are three primary forms of coping approach versus avoiding coping and there's another form of coping called intra-punitive avoidance. Uh, but the approach concept of, of coping is, you know, when people who face their problems head on, they're really good problem solvers. They make.

room for their emotional experience. If a loved one did pass away, they would grieve that loss fully and experience all the emotions that are normal and expected to go in response to such an event. And that is the moving of energy. If we look at emotions as energy in motion, that is the moving of energy and we're quite resilient as people. Just to be able to evolve to this point,

in humanity, we've had to go through tragic losses, loss of children, high infant mortality rates, trauma, and so forth. So really, we do have this built in mechanism to emotionally heal from such events. The avoidant coper, on the other hand, is one who does emotionally suppress or repress emotions. It could be through many different means that you've spoken about already from alcohol use to gambling.

to getting busy all the time, to use the internet, to not thinking about something that is emotionally distressing, to sleeping too much, to not sleeping enough, working too much. Anything to avoid the emotional experience is called experiential avoidance, and it's associated with a lot of negative health outcomes. Obviously, if you're going to avoid emotional experiences and maybe turn into unhealthy food or alcohol or smoking, that's correlated with...

Sean (13:52.72)
negative emotional negative health outcomes. And so we tend to look at that behavior as correlated with the negative health outcomes. But what you're saying is also it is not being able to process emotions in a healthy way, not being able to cope effectively is also influencing our body in negative ways and has a direct influence on the development of cancer. Is that correct?

Paul Leendertse (14:17.569)
Absolutely. Yep, that's exactly right. Yeah.

Sean (14:19.48)
Okay. So then I want to get into your experience with patients who were experiencing stage three and four cancer. You spent, it seems like what you're saying is there's a 30 period, 30 day period of time you would spend with them. Now, from what I understand, you're not a clinical psychologist, so you're not trained like I am, but you decided to dive in to the emotional experiences for people quite intensely, intensely for a short period of time. And then you started

observing some high levels of success in overcoming the cancer. So let's get into the nitty-gritty of what you did and then how you measured that success and how you came to 90% success rate in healing without any formal treatments.

Paul Leendertse (15:05.097)
Okay, great. And I really appreciate what you just shared too, from your experience and your training, your education, and how you pointed out that, well, I was talking about how the other one and two people are experiencing a lot of chronic inflammation. That's because of what you just said, where there is, well, so first of all, there can be lifestyle factors going on that are damaging to our body. But then also, there is psycho-emotional stress going on and coping mechanisms. That is

contributing to the inflammation, the various forms of inflammation that create various symptoms in our body. And so psycho-emotional stress causes all kinds of diseases and problems in the body, not just cancer, but it's the complete suppression of, did I just, okay, I'm still here. I thought I lost connection there. So with cancer, it is a significant suppression.

Sean (16:01.044)
You're still there, we're good.

Paul Leendertse (16:04.589)
Yeah, with cancer, it's a significant suppression that causes cancer. So we can have varying degrees of suppression and we can suppress, but then kind of express and then suppress again. But with cancer, it's a complete suppression. Okay, so what I ended up discovering over all these years, it's been about 15 years now, is that there are patterns. So this is how I was sort of taught.

by the experience, but not by a book or by any training. Just because I dived into this, then for example, I started to realize, well, the first person I realized that grief was associated with lung cancer was the person that died in my family. His wife had died a couple of months before. And at that point, it didn't really mean much to me. I just thought stress, right? But then what happened is that over the years, whenever a client would work with me and I would start looking into

what events had occurred in their life, and they had lung cancer, they would always have a loss every single time. So I started discovering like, wow, lung cancers, like every single time so far, this has been the cause. So that's what I would share with you guys today, right now, that I've never seen anything else other than that. And like you can correlate it like very well, just sort of like, okay, when did you first develop symptoms?

Well, it was at this time and then, okay, when did the person die? And then it's, you know, just a few months before. Sometimes it's longer though. It takes a long time for a tumor to potentially cause problems in the lung. So in that way, I was, I was starting to track all the cancers. So breast cancer has a completely different cause and colon cancer is a completely different cause, but it's all psycho-emotional. It's just different themes. For example, we can be stressed about the loss of love, which is a completely different stress compared to stress related to.

insecurity about survival in the world, like financial stress for example, like ongoing financial stress is completely different stress. How I measured success was when people would come to my program, they would have, because they were stage three or four, they would have significant symptoms. I mean, I would ask them, what's your pain level? And oftentimes it would be eight, eight plus or 10 out of 10 on pain.

Paul Leendertse (18:26.545)
and based on their function. So some of my clients would have to walk with a cane to come into my house, just to get from their car to the house. Their weight, so they would be skeletal, like they'd lost so much weight. And then also palpable tumors. So many times tumors can be, like in late stages of cancer, you can actually start having tumors bulging out of the body. And so that's generally...

how I would assess them at first. And then as time went on in the program, their cancer would start diminishing and all their symptoms would diminish. So the lump that was the size of let's say a golf ball is now just half the size. And now they don't have to walk with their cane. And now if asked them if they have pain, it's just a five out of 10. Now, by the time they would leave after 30 days, they would be, you know, one woman that lived with me for the 30 days when she first arrived.

She could barely walk except with a cane. And after just walking for a couple of minutes from like the driveway to my front door, she would have to sit and catch her breath. And it would take 10 minutes to just catch her breath again. And then she could converse with me and she'd have to sit and rest. When she left the program, she was walking without a cane. She had gained five pounds and she was walking without a cane down my 400 foot driveway. And then...

I don't know exactly how long it would be, but maybe a mile down the road to the set of lights that was near my place and back again. And when she got back, she would not even need to rest. And all of her pain's gone and all of her lumps and everything are just gone. And she's saying to me, I'm healed. Like I can feel it, I know it. And also she knows what the cause was.

Both of us do. We've like got into it and figured it out together. Now, what I, so that's how I determined my success rate. So no, they didn't go and get a scan. It's not based on scans. It's based on that. Now, what also happened is that I discovered some profound things that seem kind of obvious, like looking back, but at the time I didn't, like I just didn't really understand. But about...

Paul Leendertse (20:48.214)
40% of my clients that left my place and went back into their life, their cancer redeveloped within weeks and they died.

Sean (21:00.54)
So how do you make sense of that?

Paul Leendertse (21:02.669)
And what I ended up realizing was, for example, the one client that came, she was completely healed without a doubt. She had metastasis to her brain, so she had lumps actually on her head. When people came to my program, I did body work with them. We ate organic food. We were in the middle of a forest. They walked in nature every day. So I did a whole bunch of lifestyle things too. I didn't just neglect the physical. But then the most important thing was this root cause work.

as I call it. And when she left, all of her lumps on her head were gone. She was thinking normally again. And she all of her other symptoms were gone. So it was just like decided like you're healed. So she just like didn't decided not to go get any scans. She just didn't even go back to the hospital. But because she had changed her life as well. In her case, she had ceased. She had decided to no longer live.

where she came from. So she left that place, but she had nowhere to go yet. And she didn't have very much money. So what she did is she went and lived with her parents. Now this was a disaster because when she went and lived with her parents, I don't know if anyone's ever lived with their parents, but if, if you, if you go live with your parents, you'd probably find out why this was a disaster. Let's just say that because

It's one thing to visit your parent for like Christmas or something. But if you live with your parents for weeks on end, there's a good chance you're going to start getting into some psycho-emotional stress. And she, she got into massive stress and her mother and her father were fighting on a continuous basis, so she would wake up in the morning to them screaming at each other and, um, there was tension, constant tension in the house. And, um, what this really boiled down to is that her parents had

stresses that they were not able to resolve in their relationship and they kept escalating to the point where it was becoming vicious. And now she has just left my program. She is still vulnerable in a sense, even though all of her symptoms have disappeared. She's got to put weight back on. She's got to continue this process of reversing everything and becoming totally healthy again. So she went into an environment that was just completely full of stress and the impact on that...

Paul Leendertse (23:32.573)
the impact on her as well as my, I would say as well as my lacking with regards to preparing her. I didn't understand that I needed to prepare her for this, you know. Yeah, your question, Roger?

Sean (23:49.5)
Yes, I'm going to challenge you. I'm going to put on my scientist hat here, right? So there's a number of other variables that are not controlled for. So there is the act of going out to spend time with you, right? They went to your house. Is that accurate? OK, so there's a variable. You said you're in nature. You also engaged in walks in nature.

Paul Leendertse (24:05.39)
Yeah. Yep.

Paul Leendertse (24:09.729)
It's super important. Yeah.

Paul Leendertse (24:16.335)
Uh-huh.

Sean (24:18.364)
change their diet and then there's the relationship with you. And then we are not even talking about expectation or hope or optimism, right? So all those are additional variables that could account for the healing that occurs. And it's similar to when we talk about the science of placebo is that, and there's published

Paul Leendertse (24:39.494)
Mm-hmm.

Sean (24:48.184)
know, people heal from taking the placebo and then once they realize it was a placebo, there was no active agent, they get sick again. So are we also talking about other aspects about the power of the mind and the mind's ability to heal oneself, at least in certain contexts? Beliefs.

Paul Leendertse (25:07.605)
Sort of. There's a component to it. But yeah, everything that you're bringing up is totally logical and makes sense. There's a lot of things I've experienced over the 15 years. So I'm just giving this one example, but I appreciate your question. Back at that time, I hadn't even concluded that the only cause was psycho-emotional.

Paul Leendertse (25:37.005)
Um, many things cause cancer and, um, you know, physical things as well. And that's why I was doing a whole lifestyle component. But what happened as the years went on is then I started running into special scenarios where a client would show up that wanted my help and what they had been doing already was let's say mastering the physical. So they, they had done all sorts of.

really high quality detoxification protocols. They had fasted, I've had multiple clients tell me that they had fasted for 20 to 30 days at a time, five times in a row over like a certain period of time. They're taking high quality supplements, they completely transformed their lifestyle. No refined sugar, no dairy, no gluten, no alcohol, no caffeine, and yet their cancer's still growing.

And then when we do the root cause work, their cancer disappears. So that's one of the reasons why I started to begin to explore the possibility that there's actually just one cause of cancer. Could that be true? And the only reason I ever thought that is because of experiences like this. That's just one experience that I can share. There's lots more. For example, the opposite has happened.

where I've worked with someone for example, and they've healed in one session, one session, and they did not change their lifestyle. And now that was an example of grief. So grief, grief is not easy to heal, but it's the easiest of all the cancers what I've found. So grief, for example, can be healed potentially in one session, but other cancers are more common. They're all very different.

Sean (27:27.976)
So this is where I'm struggling. I recognize the value of the root cause. So identifying what has happened in your life that's leading to this emotional distress. But what's the approach that allows that emotional healing to actually have value? Like what are you doing with them? Is it just the talk or is there something more that you're pulling out of them?

Paul Leendertse (27:49.841)
there's much more. There's a lot involved in it. It's not actually simple. Like I have two levels of training. In my first level of training, I teach the root cause of cancer in each part of the body and then a 15 step psycho-emotional process to go through that can be utilized. In my level two training though, then we start to go into what goes on in childhood and why that causes certain behavior patterns, for example, and how that if, like,

creates certain coping styles. For example, like the average person learns to be a pleaser in order to survive their childhood. And there's far less rebellious type people what I've found compared to pleasers. And what I've noticed over the years is that I haven't had a single client that was a rebel personality type, never. It's only people that have learned how to deal with life through being like nice and avoiding like conflicts, which.

then leads to suppression, right? I don't think I've answered your question directly yet though. Can you remind me what you said?

Sean (28:56.286)
I think it's a lot deeper because it sounds like in terms of what allows that emotional healing to happen.

Paul Leendertse (29:02.701)
Oh, okay. Yeah, so essentially what needs to be done is that, and this is why the root cause of cancer really needs done. My dream is for this to reach mainstream one day. It really boils down to love. And it might sound airy-fairy or something, but love is not stress, right? So, my client that I was sharing, her parents, were fighting constantly, screaming at each other.

That's not a loving experience that's happening in that moment, we can at least say. So stress, psycho-emotional stress, is all sorts of emotions that are not love. So like to feel guilty, that's not a feeling of love. To feel shame is not love. When we're angry, we're not experiencing love. So essentially what I ended up learning over the years is that to heal, we have to actually bring love.

to ourselves and our life. Now that's where it gets pretty challenging because now it's like, okay, well, what is love? Because like in childhood, you know, a lot of my clients, for example, when they, if they made a mistake as a kid, their dad would go and bend them over a chair, pull their pants down and start beating them on the ass in front of all their brothers and sisters to the point where they're so...

Sean (30:10.056)
Yeah, that's it.

Paul Leendertse (30:28.865)
emotionally damaged and physically damaged as well, and embarrassed and humiliated that they pee themselves in front of the whole family.

Sean (30:37.18)
Yeah, so that's definitely the social component that might happen during development. And before we get too deep into it, I just have to ask this question because we've had lots of conversations on this podcast about the impact of SSRIs. It's more Rogers wheelhouse with antidepressants and how they could cause emotional blunting. So with the suppression of the stress, how do you believe that maybe emotional blunting might contribute to the development of cancer?

Paul Leendertse (31:05.857)
Okay, so what happens is, and this took me probably 10 years to actually start realizing this, by the way, I want to point out when I first wrote my book, my theory about cancer was kind of similar to Dr. Hamer's, but it was definitely still unique and different. But I actually used to think it was some kind of a biological response myself. Like I really thought that. In fact, I used to say that there's a purpose to cancer, you know?

It's showing up for a reason. So I was kind of like, that's kind of true. It's not just a random mutation, for example. It has nothing to do with our genetics. It is showing up for a reason, but it doesn't have a biological purpose. And that was hard for me to swallow actually, because I theorized about that for years. So I was just faced with like, okay, with all these new experiences and exposures that I was happening, we're working with people and being taught like the...

the truth is kind of just being revealed to me over time, you know, like this is how it is. I had to just surrender my ego and admit that my theory needs to be refined. Now, thankfully, I was still teaching that, yeah, the cause is stress and we need to change our lifestyle and we need to resolve stress in our life. So no harm done essentially. But by understanding now more accurately what's really going on with cancer and how our body works.

Now the potency of this work becomes stronger. Now I think the success rate of doing the root cause work to just completely reverse cancer without any treatments or any attempt to destroy cancer is gonna keep improving. So what I ended up kind of discovering, long story short, keep in mind, this was not just like in, there's a lot of factors that led to this realization, is that

Um...

Paul Leendertse (33:05.017)
First of all, I was invited to the Cure to Cancer Conference in San Diego, California to speak there in about 2015. I forget the exact year. And there was a lot of other speakers there, like Ty Bollinger, which is a really well-known cancer kind of advocate to help people, to empower people that they can heal themselves and so on. And he has his own teachings and stuff.

and lots of others like Chris Wark and Thomas Lodi, Nicholas Gonzalez, who else was there, some really amazing people. Anyways, I was just this young guy invited as well. And I was the only person there saying that stress is the cause of cancer though. But there was someone else there that really caught my attention and his name is Doug Kaufman. And he has a book called, It's a Fungus, or no, sorry.

The Fungal Link is the name of his book. And he's a doctor and he's just done tremendous research into his theory that cancer is a fungus. And he believed for sure that the cause of cancer is fungal infection. Lots of profound reasons for him. Like he's got multiple books. And so I had a conversation with him and I said,

fungus is not the cause of cancer. And he said, Paul, trust me, cancer is a fungus. So years later, I started to discover some other things. And now we get into some knowledge that most of humanity doesn't really have awareness about or grasp upon, a grasp on. So I'm gonna present some new like fact information here. Of course,

We're gonna have to just use an open mind here. So I invite you to use an open mind to just understand this because you're not gonna find it in books really. I think it does exist out there but it's just not like common knowledge. So if you kind of go with me here to understand this, we have a physical body. So we need to understand how the body works. And we also need to understand what fungus is and why it exists. Because both Doug and I, when...

Paul Leendertse (35:23.421)
I eventually realized we needed to combine what we discovered. And when I combine what I discovered with Doug, then I feel like it completes the understanding of the root cause of cancer. So here it is. So we have a physical body and it's touchable. It's a material thing, right? But then we have emotions and they are not touchable and they are not a material thing. But the real, of course.

So, you know, anger is a real thing and guilt and grief and all these things. And what emotions are, which I loved what something Roger said, kind of, uh, touched upon this is they are energy. It is an energy that comes over us. And this energy is actually part of our soul. So our soul is what connects our emotions and our physical body. Like our soul is.

the center of our being, let's say, and it is an energy, it's what gives us life. So when a person dies, the soul leaves the body, all the energy leaves the body, and as the energy leaves, the body begins to decompose. And you cannot stop the process of decomposition of the body, except for, let's say, if you were to freeze someone or whatever, like these types of things. But essentially, when the life energy leaves the body, it begins to decompose.

So this energy is what carries our emotions. And so our energy field is actually overlapping and penetrating through our physical body, just like a cellular wifi signal or like, you know, signals, they just pass right through walls and right through windows and stuff, you know, because it's an energy and our emotions are an energy that passes through our physical body. So...

Also, I think Roger touched on this is that when we're not suppressing our emotions and when we're feeling them and we're able to process them, the energy is actually moving. It is, it's actually flowing. So essentially we're alive. So if you're sad and crying, you're alive. If you're angry, you're alive. Your energy is actually flowing. But if we suppress our emotion, which is a coping mechanism, then we can stop.

Paul Leendertse (37:47.845)
the flow of energy. It actually abruptly halts the flow of energy. Like you could be pissed off at somebody and just like, ugh, just like, I'm not gonna say anything. Not gonna show my anger. That's the emotional, okay, sure. Yeah, emotional blunting. So we suppress it down. Now, if our suppression over time, now this could happen in one moment, like someone dies, or it can happen as an accumulation of events.

Sean (37:59.28)
So we'll call that the emotional blunting, the feeling nothing.

Paul Leendertse (38:14.425)
that just don't feel good for us, eventually we can reach a point where we suppress. And like lots and lots of questions are gonna keep coming, but I've probably got answers for them all. Like we'd have to talk about childhood cancer on a whole different time because there's so much to understand with that. But it all makes sense, at least logically, and this is what I'm observing. So when we suppress like that and cause this emotional blunting, the energy stops actually flowing.

And when it stops flowing, it stops at a particular location. So it doesn't stop flowing all over our entire body. This is why oftentimes people have cancer and they're like healthy. Their arms and their legs work. They can run up a mountain, their heart's healthy, all this, but, but they have cancer in like one spot. It's because when we suppress an emotion based on the psychology that's going on and how our physiology and our brain are all connected and set up by like creation.

It suppresses in one particular location. And that location is where cancer grows. And the reason why cancer grows there, but not anywhere else, is because that life force energy, that our emotional energy that feeds our physical body, this is the thing, it feeds our body. That's why if you take the energy completely out, a person will decompose, like a person's body will decompose. So that energy will literally stop feeding that part of the body.

And because the energy is not feeding that part of the body, it becomes compromised at the very least. And with time, and depending on the severity of what's going on, the severity of the restriction, it basically enters into a death process. So one part of our body is actually dying. And because it's dying, then fungus at some point appears in this dead tissue, in this dying tissue.

and it begins growing and inhabiting the body right there. It doesn't spread any further though. And like, so the whole belief system about cancer spreading out of control and all that, that's not even accurate either. Like I've had clients with lumps in their body for like seven years and it's not changed. Like the reality is a lump can grow, yes. It can become benign and dormant, not even change. And then it can also disappear. But the mainstream belief is kind of like cancer grows out of control, but that's not even true or accurate. So when,

Paul Leendertse (40:40.201)
This occurs, fungus is actually what occurs. This is what I think is really happening. Fungus starts to grow there and this is why we can destroy cancer for example, like we can totally eliminate the cancer with surgery. Let's say we take out a tumor. We cut all the tissue around the tumor and get rid of it or we kill the cells with chemotherapy or some kind of a toxin or whatever and guess what?

If you don't address, if you've not addressed the root cause, it grows back. And it grows, the reason it grows back is because we're trying to address something that's like, uh, we're addressing the physical result of what is actually originating in the energy body. The energy is what you can't touch with anything physical. So chemotherapy can't change the energetic reality of a person. Surgery can't change the energy. The only way to change the energetic reality of a person.

is if we start connecting to the psychology and the emotions, and then this comes back to love, the only way to actually resolve emotional pain is through love. So this is like, that's my general explanation at this point.

Sean (41:52.172)
Okay, so Paul, there's a lot of scientific advancements going on simultaneously right now that supports a lot of the things you're saying, and I just want to know if you're connected to them.

Paul Leendertse (42:06.169)
I'm kind of in my own world, so to be honest, I'm not. I'm just like so busy with, yeah.

Sean (42:09.5)
The work, let me ask, let me ask you if you're familiar with the work of Dr. Bruce Lipton, Dr. Joe Dispenza, the HeartMath Institute, the developing, the developing field of energy medicine and then traditionally Chinese medicine and then you're also referring to some Christian teachings today. So it's not like you're coming at, right. So there's nothing that you're saying that's completely out of left field.

Paul Leendertse (42:17.149)
Ah, uh-huh. All three of those, yeah, actually, yeah.

Paul Leendertse (42:27.013)
Okay.

Yes, I'm familiar with all of that actually, yeah. I've read...

Sean (42:39.708)
This is the first time I'm hearing cancer in terms of being a fungus, but underlying mechanisms that may be influencing it have been discussed in different ways or being researched in different ways and there's significant advancements in that. So, the concept of love is healing is as a teaching of Jesus Christ.

Paul Leendertse (42:59.425)
Yeah, yeah, and what's interesting is doing this work for all these years, I started to run into religious and spiritual realms of life because I would have Christians, for example, or Catholics come to me. They've been dying and nothing's working, so then they come to me. And the first thing they say before they're even willing to do a session with me is they'll ask me, for example, not all Christians or Catholics, just this is some examples of what happened.

is like, Paul, first I have to check, do you believe Jesus is your savior? Or are you a Christian? Or are you like, you know, are you a Jehovah witness? And I found out in the beginning that if I said no, because I was just being honest, like, no, I'm not, that isn't my religion, they just wouldn't even work with me. And then they would go and die too. So once we get into concepts about love and go into concepts about God,

then it gets really sensitive, really complicated. Then it can become, yeah, it's a pretty complex topic. Once you get into the root cause work, you actually do have to get into belief systems about creation and what is love and is Jesus our savior and what does that really mean? People have told me, for example, that Jesus died for our sins.

And so we don't have to worry about it. Like I've heard people say that, like all you gotta do is go to church. And I'm like, well, wait a second. So if Jesus died for our sins, that logically means that the human race was full of sin, right? So they're sinning, they were lying, they're cheating, they were making money in immoral ways, they were crossing boundaries sexually, they were doing all these things. So then Jesus came and died for our sins. But then after that,

Humanity is still doing all of that. Like humanity is still lying, cheating, crossing boundaries. So we get into it's a deep topic. We get into these philosophies like okay.

Sean (45:00.253)
So.

Yeah.

Sean (45:08.221)
It's an important topic because maybe that's being misunderstood. So in a course of miracles, I don't know if you've ever read the course of miracles or been exposed to it. Yeah.

Paul Leendertse (45:13.666)
Right, yeah.

Paul Leendertse (45:18.977)
I have read that too, yeah. I dove into all these areas really deeply, so I guess I should say I'm not out of the loop. I thought you meant more scientific research, like is cancer a fungus and stuff like that.

Sean (45:23.858)
Well-

Sean (45:29.456)
Yeah, that too. That's interesting. But in the course of miracles, sin is identified as the illusion of separation. So that we are as if we are separated from each other, we are separated from God. And so if we are, if sin is the illusion of separation, it would be the idea like anything that I would do to hurt my brother would be to hurt myself because

that is ultimately what sin is. To hurt another is also to hurt oneself because we are not separate, right? And that's all, which is not love. And ultimately, you know, do unto others as you would do yourself is ultimately healing. And I think accepting of Christ is accepting of the Christ consciousness around that idea that Christ is within all of us and that God is everything that exists.

Paul Leendertse (46:03.321)
does not love.

Mm-hmm.

Paul Leendertse (46:12.706)
Yes.

Paul Leendertse (46:23.333)
Mm hmm. Oh, I love the teachings of Jesus, by the way. I hope I didn't come across in some. Yeah.

Sean (46:24.6)
And so the energy... No, but love as an energy, is love as being a healing force, there's so many components to this when it comes to the emotional experience and the way we deal with suffering that exists in our lives. Is there an allowance for it to move in a way that serves us in some...

probably some learning component that exists. I think the one value when we talk about, you know, Jesus dying for our sins. And when it comes to a faith, it's number one, if you do sin, or if you do something wrong, it's about asking for forgiveness. So then you're almost verbalizing and you're looking for that it's almost an emotional healing that is you're allowing yourself to recognize that you've done wrong. You're not suppressing it, you're not repressing it, you're actually bringing it to the fourth and presenting it and trying to let it all go.

Paul Leendertse (47:17.283)
Absolutely.

Sean (47:24.52)
So I think that's one of the things that connects to what your belief is in terms of allowing that emotional healing to happen. I think maybe that's where the value of a church or whatever your belief system comes into play.

Paul Leendertse (47:24.666)
Uh-huh.

Paul Leendertse (47:38.113)
Absolutely, I think all the religions at least they started out this way Their intention is to bring love to humanity right to help humanity become more conscious of what love is and actually do that Like do love But but it gets it gets it's actually been Like I don't know how to say this like watered down like how to be a loving person has become watered down. It's become very confusing and I would say there's a lot of cons like

big cons, I call them, intentionally misleading humanity into unloving behaviors and unloving belief systems. And so there's a lot of wisdom lost. So for example, with forgiveness, true forgiveness won't even cause a healing, or sorry, forgiveness won't cause a healing if it's intellectual. It has to actually be from the heart. And this is why in a lot of the religions, they talk about this word called repentance.

Repentance means you actually realize sincerely in your heart, not in your head, that you have committed something that was out of harmony with love, and you feel the pain of it. It's real for you. And so then you repent, and then you can ask for forgiveness and actually receive it. But see what, for example, what happens oftentimes in humanity today, and especially, you know, like in relationship challenges, someone will do something wrong, that's truly wrong, and they'll be like, I'm sorry.

Sean (49:03.464)
Mm-hmm.

Paul Leendertse (49:03.545)
but not actually mean it, and then not change the behavior and do it again. And then you can have a person saying, okay, well, you said sorry, so let's continue. Then they do it again. And then the person says, okay, I understand you're sorry. And then they do it again. And this is called enabling. So there's all kinds of like complexities that start to come to the surface once we get into this root cause stuff. And it really has to do with love and like what is love and how do we become loving?

Sean (49:20.916)
Mm-hmm.

Paul Leendertse (49:36.557)
Some of the teachings of the Bible are super potent, actually. But then there's the problem that a lot of people are pissed off about religion. A lot of people are atheists. A lot of people have been damaged by religions. You know, like Christianity has been the cause of wars. Christians in the past murdered people, you know? So it gets very complicated. So what really matters is love more than the religion itself. Don't be attached to the religion.

Sean (49:58.588)
Well, I think what I think one of the. Right, people.

Paul Leendertse (50:06.061)
Love is the religion in alignment with that, right?

Sean (50:09.296)
People hurt in the name of religion. I wouldn't say it's the religion itself. It's man. It is man who harms others, not within the teachings of the religion, against the teachings of the religion generally. But I wanna get back to Joe Dispenza and Bruce Lipton work and the HeartMath Institute. They're talking about these things around coherence. We're starting to learn about some of these health variables like heart rate variability. There's tons of outcome.

literature about this heart coherence that exists. Like there is a greater universal consciousness that we, and maybe that's God, this great universal consciousness that we can tap into for wisdom and for healing, raising kind of the collective vibration of humanity. And there are positive health outcomes that they're measuring from getting people together and meditating and doing specific types of meditation. Even in mainstream...

cancer treatments, they're incorporating these things that are anti-emotional suppression. Mindfulness, for example, is the anti-emotional suppression. It is the allowance, it is the connecting to the present moment, that we can only live in the eternal now. It is only the now that exists. And if that is now includes the experience of what is an aversive emotion, whether it's fear or sadness or grief or anger, it is to experience that and it is to experience that fully.

And what we see psychologically is the more we allow for the full experience of those emotions, the less aversive they actually are. Like they're partners that exist in our lives. And so that might drive somebody in a meditative experience to experience intense emotion. But that seems to have this curative, therapeutic, or healing component to it. So it is the moving of the energy. Are we just on...

Paul Leendertse (51:59.898)
Mm-hmm.

Sean (52:04.38)
the cusp of being able to fully, from a collective consciousness perspective, be able to connect with that universal intelligence that is in itself healing. And I'm wondering if that's what's happening in your sessions to some extent.

Paul Leendertse (52:20.993)
Yeah, well, I love how you communicated what you just said.

Paul Leendertse (52:28.555)
I, it's.

Yeah, so there's components of this that are so important, like understanding creation itself and understanding what source is and what this primary source of energy is and how we are connected to it is essential for healing. But I actually teach that there's too much emphasis on them. I don't get this actually from you. I'm what I'm...

observing I think with you is that you're actually you have a deep understanding of the importance of emotions and feeling them and processing them but a lot of the like mind Gurus, I don't know if that's the right label but like Joe Dispenza I think he's more emphasized his emphasis is on mostly the mind but not really the emotions and that there's also a belief out there That the mind can control the emotions

which is true, if you think about a whole bunch of bad stuff, then you're gonna start to have bad emotions. But what actually happens more often, I think, and from what I've observed, is that our emotions drive the mind. This is really important to understand. Like, we can experience a negative emotion, not because of our thoughts, but because of our reality. Like, so for example, if someone treats you like shit, if someone says something mean to you, then you'll feel an emotion.

It's not because you're just thinking stuff. Well, it does depend. It does depend. It depends on

Sean (53:56.908)
That depends. No, that depends. Right? This goes back to stoic philosophy, right? Epictetus, that men are not disturbed by things, but rather the viewpoint they take of them. So this is the mind, body, and the mind, emotional experience. So someone can be mean to you. It's only hurtful based on what the mind says about that. The story the mind creates about it.

Paul Leendertse (54:17.936)
Sort of.

Paul Leendertse (54:24.001)
Right, I understand what you're saying, but the mind will say something about it based on how healed and involved we actually are. So we can't actually skip... So for example, if in our childhood we are taught that we don't deserve love and we have low self-worth and we carry shame, then if someone tells you you're an idiot, you will feel horrible emotionally. And you can't battle that with the mind.

Sean (54:35.08)
Well, what do you mean by that? What do you mean by how healed and evolved we are?

Paul Leendertse (54:53.881)
You actually have to go deep into psycho-emotional healing work to resolve your shame and resolve your low self-worth. And if that's actually resolved, which is what I mean by spiritual growth and evolution of the soul, then if someone tells you you're an idiot, it won't even phase you. So it's not really the, it's not just the power of the mind. And I've actually had some Buddhist clients that have cancer and it's because of their teachings of Buddhism that they received at least. Because

They're putting so much emphasis on the mind. Because that's how we suppress is with the mind. So we can kind of like try to get through these challenges with the mind. But what we have to do is we have to bring love to the real issue and love, like we have to use our mind to accomplish that, but it's more complex than just the mind. There's a whole spiritual component related to love and feeling our emotions and knowing how to process too. If we just try to tackle it with the mind,

It doesn't actually work if it's just the mind alone. But I know that you obviously understand the emotional component too. My point is just to point out that I think today there's a very heavy emphasis on the mind and it's not as powerful as it might seem because you can't surpass love with the mind.

Sean (56:10.748)
Right, I think what you're referring to is intellectualization. And there's actually, and within Buddhism and even some modern day psychological treatments that are called third wave behavioral therapies, the value of meditation and mindfulness is creating the space that exists for you to observe your mind. So you are...

Paul Leendertse (56:15.545)
Yeah, that sounds right.

Paul Leendertse (56:33.029)
Hugely important, yeah.

Sean (56:35.7)
actually diffusing, you're actually diffusing and detaching from your mind because it is your mind that creates suffering. You know, the mind will say that I am less than. My mind will compare me negatively to other people. My mind will create separation that I'm separate from my brother. I am separate from that person because their skin color is different than mine. My mind will create threat.

And there are chemicals reactions then for that, stress reactions for that, that you spoke so eloquently throughout this podcast today that stress response experience is toxic to the body and energy can get stuck and not moved. And when that energy is stuck and not moved, it is disease. The body is not at ease. So it does speak to some of the more advanced applications of this is if we can learn

to separate from the mind. And we can experience emotions fully, even the ones that may be stuck or repressed from decades ago even. Then that is the moving of that emotion in a healthy, therapeutic and healing way. It's one of the values of psychotherapy is when that full combined experience does happen for people who have experienced trauma and

the way they cope is negatively affecting their physical, mental, emotional wellbeing. So I think we're saying the same things. I just wanna make sure the difference is that I can observe my mind without attachment to it and I can cultivate that skill even. And so I wanna ask you how valuable has meditation been in your life and was there any role in your own kind of spiritual work or meditative practice that actually brought you down this direction?

Paul Leendertse (58:10.607)
Yeah.

Sean (58:31.408)
to be able to... It seems like there's a calling to be able to create in this way.

Paul Leendertse (58:36.497)
Mm-hmm, absolutely. And just before I respond to that, I would like to continue a lot longer because I'm really enjoying this conversation. But I have to leave in probably 10 minutes because I have a course that I'm teaching that starts in about 15 minutes. But, okay, so first of all, I practiced what's called Watcher Meditation.

Sean (58:55.193)
Okay, we'll wrap it up.

Paul Leendertse (59:04.945)
for 15 years myself. And what I did is almost every day, I practiced at least 20 minutes, 20 to 60 minutes of watching meditation, which is basically like quick explanation, watching your thoughts, watching your breath, watching the energy in your body or more like feeling it, right? Like connecting to what's going on. And I think it's tremendously important.

because essentially how I describe the process of healing is that one component of this is understanding that we have a first birth and a second birth. This is kind of talked about in different religions, like being reborn. The first birth is the birth that occurred sort of without our choice, and we were raised and loved by our parents, and we were dependent. And then...

In a very real way, we become a replica of our parents. So the belief systems we take on, our lifestyle habits we take on, we take on our parents' level of love. And then later on in life, we can start to consciously, so that'll all be on autopilot. It's just all happening. This is our first birth. And it involves developing a false self, a false self personality.

which is part of our coping strategy for surviving life, for living life. Then we can develop a conscious birth, which is our, I call our rebirth, which is how we heal of cancer. But the conscious birth requires being able to, like to begin this relationship where we start to watch ourselves. We start to see our behaviors and become conscious of them. We start to see what thoughts are occurring in us. And, you know, we begin this inward,

consciousness process where we start to investigate our ego structure and identify essentially what's out of harmony with love and what's actually not serving us or serving others as well. And then we start to consciously rebuild ourselves. So having a meditation practice is something that I teach in my training because it's one of the foundations of being able to successfully rebirth ourselves. Yeah, so it's extremely important.

Paul Leendertse (01:01:30.509)
Yeah, that's what I would say.

Sean (01:01:32.436)
Okay, so we're short of time. I wanna review a couple of things because I almost feel like this is somewhat of a first step for us in this podcast to explore different areas because what we start about is talking about cancer and alternative means of being able to heal, but it does transition into this profound mind body experience that exists, energy medicine, heart coherence, coping, how to emotionally cope, how to heal from past trauma.

and how important and critical this is in our overall health and our wellbeing. And so it just opens the door for future podcasts. We talked about spirituality, healing nature of love and forgiveness and a manner in which it has to occur. It can't be something that's superficial or intellectual. It's something that really comes from the heart and it's really experienced. I think there is emotional healing that we haven't even beginning to really fully tap into.

but we have to look at energy as an emotion. And it coincides really nicely with a lot of things we've talked about here, what's damaging in our Western culture. The pharmaceutical revolution that exists and viewing just our mental health as the absence of negative emotion is going to create harm because it's not going to allow us to move that energy and allow it. It's actually developing a relationship to that emotion that is aversive, to be scared of that emotion. I can't even begin to think about how harmful that is.

Paul, thank you so much for a fascinating conversation, but I want to be able to direct our listeners to find out more about you or to access some of your work.

Paul Leendertse (01:03:10.585)
Thank you. Well, I teach a level one training, which I mentioned, and a level two training. So if you wanna get deep into this and give me the time to teach and share a tremendous amount of experience and knowledge I've accumulated, then I highly recommend taking my training. I'm teaching the tools. First of all, what the root cause of cancer is in each part of the body that I've tracked based on my experience.

and then the processing tools. So I have a psycho-emotional tool that I feel like we should be taught in our childhood, which is how to actually deal with the stresses and challenges that hit us, how to move through those challenges in such a way where we are connecting to the emotions and processing them successfully and actually evolving our soul. So we are expanding. We're actually rising above the challenge.

Whereas the opposite of that is to get stuck in it and suppress and then develop cancer. So my first training, there's a quick summary of my first training kind of, but there's a little more to that. And I have a monthly call where everyone that's taking the training comes on and asks questions about what's going on in their life, if they're in challenges, questions if they're working with clients. And so this is a group monthly call and there's a whole section of additional resources that I'm constantly expanding on to bring more and more value. Then there's level two.

And here's where we get into what creates our false self versus our real self. Um, and we get deeper into spirituality because I haven't, well, we've kind of touched on this a bit, but what I would want to say is that the actual cause of cancer is spiritual and the emotions are a result of that. So we didn't even go to that level, but in level two, I started to explain why that is because.

how I define the spiritual, this is related to our belief systems about life, our belief systems about love, our subconscious beliefs about who we are and how we cope and what gets triggered in us, doing our shadow work. Level two is very deep and complex. I think my training is for everybody. It's for whether you're a coach or whether you're just someone that's passionate about health.

Paul Leendertse (01:05:33.853)
and personal development or medical professionals. I'm having more and more medical professionals take the training too, because they want to start getting deeper and not just be dealing with causes all the time with like you said, Roger, like throw a pharmaceutical drug at a symptom. Let's start understanding why the symptoms there, right? And really start changing things. I think with this root cause work, real positive significant change can actually happen. And like, I mean,

I also can't, I have lots to share, but what I'm excited about is that the whole root cause work just expands more and more and more because, you know, Dr. Harmer, he discovered stress was the cause and there's lots of other people in the world that are sort of in this line of work. So I'm excited about it and I invite everyone to come and join me in my training and let's do the root cause work.

Sean (01:06:29.94)
And I'd love to have you come back on for possibly a part two where we can talk more about the spiritual aspects of this.

Paul Leendertse (01:06:37.093)
That sounds like a good possibility. I've really enjoyed our discussion and appreciate the exchange.

Sean (01:06:39.109)
Okay.

Sean (01:06:45.136)
All right, Paul Indertz, we want to thank you for a radically genuine conversation.